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Thread: Cohen and Weiss like the CoP

  1. #1
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Cohen and Weiss like the CoP

    Here's a nice article from the USFSA web site about Sasha's take on the Code of points so far.

    http://usfsa.org/news/2003-04/cohen-weiss-lalique.htm

    “This is going to help me excel faster in skating,” Cohen said in favor of the new system. “It gives skaters a chance to compare [against] themselves. They don't have to compare themselves with other skaters. They can just go home and work hard, no matter what place they are. They can be pleased with the points they are striving for that reflects their personal skating.”

    Mathman

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    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    well sure they like it... they're winning! LOL


    *runs and hides after being ornery*

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    I'm going to be snarky and agree with Toni...if Sasha was getting dinged for the flutz and the spiral on the flat and not getting +3 GOEs on spins she falls out of (see SA), then I don't think she'd like it so much. :D

    Mikey likes it because it allowed to place higher (trying not to spoil) than some other competitors who, sadly, threw in an illegal jump at the end and lost out on placing higher. This other skater is probably NOT too fond of CoP.

    Laura

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    Skating Freak Barbie
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    I'm glad they both are enjoying it so far, although I agree that certain things on certain skaters still don't seem to be taken as deductions. But hey, I like Mike, I'm glad he's doing well under it! And I do think it's cool that points can be compared from one competition to another.

    Kasey

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    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Oh I am totally agreeing with the fact that Mike is doing well... and like he said at Skate America... he's lucky to have a coach that was part of the comittee in creating it so he's got a huge advantage to most of the competitors...

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Here are a couple of quotes that I found interesting.

    About Mike: "Ironically he scored more points for the failed quad [he fell] which was judged as a quad (8.0-3.0=5.0), than he did for his faulty quad which was called his third triple toe at Skate America (0 points)."

    It seems like any skater who can manage three and a half revolutions before falling down should pack his program with "quads."

    Sasha: "I think the only negative is that it’s new, and people aren't sure of what to assign to what things yet," she said. "They aren't sure of what some things are worth, like my spiral sequence, for example. [I was told] it would be a level three, and at Skate America and Skate Canada I got level two."

    Hmm. If Sasha's spiral is only judged as a "level two" I wonder what in the world you have to do to get a "level three?"

    Mathman

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    ~ Evgeni's Sex Bomb ~
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    Originally posted by Mathman

    Hmm. If Sasha's spiral is only judged as a "level two" I wonder what in the world you have to do to get a "level three?"

    Mathman
    Maybe be on an edge for more than the first part?

    Sorry, feeling mean after one of my fave skaters faltered yesterday....(had the skaters name, didn't want to spoil)

    Laura

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    PrincessLeppard, haven't you been listening to Peggy Fleming?

    MM
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-23-2003 at 03:31 PM.

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    So, let's review: In response to instances where a few judges tried to fix events, they've instituted a system where *one* person, the caller, has the power to decide if something was performed as planned. That's an improvement?

    Wait until an Olympic Games when someone has a huge lead after the short, falls apart in the long, and still beats someone who skated better. It'll be amusing to see all the people who've been sucking up to Speedy suddenly try to distance themselves in the PR disaster that follows. :P

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    Originally posted by Mathman
    Here are a couple of quotes that I found interesting.

    About Mike: "Ironically he scored more points for the failed quad [he fell] which was judged as a quad (8.0-3.0=5.0), than he did for his faulty quad which was called his third triple toe at Skate America (0 points)."

    It seems like any skater who can manage three and a half revolutions before falling down should pack his program with "quads."

    Sasha: "I think the only negative is that it’s new, and people aren't sure of what to assign to what things yet," she said. "They aren't sure of what some things are worth, like my spiral sequence, for example. [I was told] it would be a level three, and at Skate America and Skate Canada I got level two."

    Hmm. If Sasha's spiral is only judged as a "level two" I wonder what in the world you have to do to get a "level three?"

    Mathman

    Sasha was probably told by Dick, Peggy and TT that her spiral is the best but I think her spiral is a level two. When she improves her edges with her extension then maybe a level 3.

  11. #11
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Originally posted by NorthernLite
    So, let's review: In response to instances where a few judges tried to fix events, they've instituted a system where *one* person, the caller, has the power to decide if something was performed as planned. That's an improvement?

    Wait until an Olympic Games when someone has a huge lead after the short, falls apart in the long, and still beats someone who skated better. It'll be amusing to see all the people who've been sucking up to Speedy suddenly try to distance themselves in the PR disaster that follows. :P
    At least the decisions of the caller and his/her two assistants aren't shrouded in secrecy like the judges'. I would go along with the CoP if they would just get away from the secret judging thing.

    But at least Speedy is consistent. If his thesis is that the problem is judges who are beholding to their federations and so are subject to inappropriate pressure, then secret judges with a "public" caller who works directly for the ISU makes sense. (A little bit. I guess.)

    About someone winning the whole shebang by while losing the long program, this can happen under the old 6.0 system, too. Like in 1988 when Elizabeth Manley brought the house down, clearly beating a mediocre performance by Katarina Witt, yet Kat was the overall winner because of her placement in the short.

    What I liked about Sasha's comment was the attitude that "people" (i.e., the caller), because of lack of experience with the system, didn't yet fully appreciate the qualities of her spiral.

    Mathman

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    Originally posted by Mathman
    Hmm. If Sasha's spiral is only judged as a "level two" I wonder what in the world you have to do to get a "level three?"
    Originally posted by PrincessLeppard
    Maybe be on an edge for more than the first part?
    And don't do a bunch of crossovers between each spiral.

  13. #13
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    Originally posted by Tonichelle
    he's lucky to have a coach that was part of the comittee in creating it so he's got a huge advantage to most of the competitors...
    Do you think that Don Laws influenced the criteria and point values to play to Weiss' strengths? Because if he didn't, given the number of seminars the ISU has given, that there are judges from most countries that have been trained in CoP and certified, and the fact that coaches and judges talk to each other all the time, I don't see why Weiss has any more than a marginal advantage due to Laws' involvement. If anything, Weiss and all other native English speakers have the advantage because they and their coaches are reading the publications in their native language. Because it's all there, in the documentation.

  14. #14
    nthuz
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    I can't seem to figure out how to put the quote in properly.

    NorthernLite said, "So, let's review: In response to instances where a few judges tried to fix events, they've instituted a system where *one* person, the caller, has the power to decide if something was performed as planned. That's an improvement?"

    I thought that the caller decides what the element that was performed is to be judges AS, not what it was intended to be.

    Am I wrong?

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    nthuz, that's what I'm saying - the callers are doing it wrong. They're giving credits for combos that aren't combos. They're not calling what did happen, but what was supposed to happen.

    There is also discrepancy between events, where one time a skater gets credit for Level 2 something (spin, spiral) and at the next event a different caller says that a virtually identical performance is Level 1.

    And then, as noted above, there are the lack of penalties where there should be some. And who the heck thought it was a good idea to give decent credit for *falls* but hammer someone for trying tricky combos and slightly underrotating. Penalize *both* things, but not only one.

    Add to that, the judges are not using TCS to break down aspects of choreo and execution as they should. It's being used like the same old same old presentaion mark to hold certain people up.

    There are certainly aspect to CoP that could be an improvement. But I think the idea and execution has bugs beyond the secrecy/randomness.

    And mathman, I don't think your analogy is a good one, since figures were still a factor in 88. Name me a time post-figures where the first-place winner had an insurmountable lead after the short. :D

    Another thing to remember, is that CoP has also erased the distinction between the technical program and the freekskate. Now you have programs judged with identical criteria, yet set up so that one skater can amass an enormous lead in the first, shorter portion. At least in recent 6.0, any of the top three "controlled their own destiny" in the free. And that made it more exciting.

    (Even that other recent ISU idiocy, the QR at Worlds, only reduced those who control their own destiny down to *two* skaters.)

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