Kim's representatives end Orser's coaching relationship threads merged

[skatinginbc]

Making a public statement within the framework of logic is part (though not whole) of maintaining professionalism. In my opinion it was logically flawed to say "This can ONLY be construed as a move intended to hurt the skater" when there existed an alternate explanation (no matter how slim it was perceived) that Brian might have revealed the LP music simply out of mouth slip. In addition, when Yuna said “Stop telling lies”, she already implicitly defined what “the truth” was and therefore, borrowing Daniel way of saying, had asserted “the monopoly of the truth”. Both statements were unnecessarily inflammatory and could have been avoided if Yuna’s camp had a more competent agent.
I have no problem when people say:
1. It is a fact that Brian’s “inconsistent” interviews have been interpreted by some as lying.
2. The ambiguity in Brian’s interviews could be construed as a tell-tale sign for lying.
And I would even go so far as to accept the following argument:
3. Since the ambiguity in Brian's interviews has caused such confusion in many people's mind, we should not blame Yuna for being confused with it as well.
However, I do have problems when people claim:
1. It is a fact that Brian clearly lied in his interviews (when it is not clear to some people).
2. Skatinginbc has no idea what logic is (it is wrong and unnecessarily inflammatory).
If logic is not important, are we now all speaking out of emotions?

[seniorita]

Maybe someone can make a guide, how to dump your coach gracefully in 5 steps

Yes, I think you are referring to the infamous "winter" program ?

no it was a medley of winter and MITIM images

It'll be a lot more likely...Yuna and Mao become...REAL friends.

Why not, Michelle and Irina were real friends

[janetfan]

If logic is not important, are we now all speaking out of emotions?

Let's remember the word "fan" is just a shortened version of the word "fanatic."

Is is true to say mathman is a Michelle Kwan fan? Of course since he would be the first to admit it.

Would it be true and logical to say mathman is a Michelle Kwan fanatic? Of course it would.

Skating fanatics are no different than other fanatics. Is that logical and true?

I think I will change my name here to "janetfanatic" just to clear up any doubts or confusion about how I feel about Janet's skating.

Yuna fanatics are upset about the events of the past week. If they were not upset they would not be Yuna fanatics.
Is that last sentence logical?

Maybe not because by the very nature of being a fanatic one can also be illogical and unpredictable.

The most consistent quality of most fanatics is that they never believe they are wrong when discussing the object of their fanaticism.

Thus, I conclude "Janet Lynn is the most beautiful skater who ever lived." Actually that is a quote by Michelle's former coach, Frank Carroll who like me is also Janet fanatic.

[silverling]

Just one correction: He was not fired. He was just supposed to coach her until 2010 Oly from the start. Yuna team never ever promised him or told him before that they would continue getting coach from him after 2010 oly. It's just contract expired!
(Yuna team never ever promised him to have coaching with him after the 2010 oly. It's just expire of contract.) (They just turned down to have coaching with him after the 2010 oly as well. They just turned down to have another 4 year with him.) That's all. Not firing, Not dumping. No nothing.

[lowtherlore]

Orser may have been in closer communication with IMG and the Japanese federation than with Yu-Na recently. During this summer, there was a group of junior skaters from Japan training at the Cricket Club, and personnel from the Japanese federation frequented the club for monitoring. Yu-Na has been training by herself since June. Later in an interview, Orser said Yu-Na’s side might have felt neglected.

Whether the Mao coaching proposal was real is uncertain. Orser had been consistent in his remarks about the Mao contact, until he denied it only in his last interview before he finally stopped talking. Of course Mao, IMG (agent of Mao and Orser) and the Japanese federation have denied this. Regardless of the Mao situation, probably by now Orser’s interests are more in line with IMG’s and the Japanese federation’s, which are much bigger than Yu-Na and All That Sports (Yu-Na’s own agency). Of course nothing’s wrong with it, as it’s his business. But for Yu-Na the club might have become uninhabitable because of this shift in his priorities. If this was the case, it must have been obvious to Orser too, as after all these years he doesn’t need to be reminded where Yu-Na came from and what her needs are. It’s OK that he cannot meet her needs anymore due to priorities. However, it’s senseless of him to say he never expected this to happen and to go one step further to humiliate Yu-Na, while lip servicing all the way that he wishes her the best. If he really meant it, I have to question his common sense. But my bet is on that he did it intentionally and maliciously, and IMG released this ‘Orser gets axed out of blue without being given proper reason’ crap just on the same date Ticketmaster listed All That Skate LA on its website. And it was weird the way he insisted it’s not about the money by needlessly revealing his hourly charges, and conveniently omitting his fees for attending competitions, money from appearing in Yu-Na’s commercials and ice shows, and the bonuses paid to him by various Korean organizations for the success in Vancouver.

I think this incident could have been avoided and the transition (Yu-Na’s move to other coach/club) could have gone smoother, if the Korean federation had been alert and effective in protecting its elite skater. The Korean federation had done practically nothing for her. I doubt Yu-Na’s side even bothered to consult with the federation on this turn of events. Looking at the bright side, this incident will pass as just another chapter in Yu-Na’s eventful career, and maybe a blessing in disguise like many of her previous adversities. As Yu-Na’s favorite quote, “This, too, will pass”.

[janetfan]

Orser may have been in closer communication with IMG and the Japanese federation than with Yu-Na recently. During this summer, there was a group of junior skaters from Japan training at the Cricket Club, and personnel from the Japanese federation frequented the club for monitoring. Yu-Na has been training by herself since June. Later in an interview, Orser said Yu-Na’s side might have felt neglected.

Whether the Mao coaching proposal was real is uncertain. Orser had been consistent in his remarks about the Mao contact, until he denied it only in his last interview before he finally stopped talking. Of course Mao, IMG (agent of Mao and Orser) and the Japanese federation have denied this. Regardless of the Mao situation, probably by now Orser’s interests are more in line with IMG’s and the Japanese federation’s, which are much bigger than Yu-Na and All That Sports (Yu-Na’s own agency). Of course nothing’s wrong with it, as it’s his business. But for Yu-Na the club might have become uninhabitable because of this shift in his priorities. If this was the case, it must have been obvious to Orser too, as after all these years he doesn’t need to be reminded where Yu-Na came from and what her needs are. It’s OK that he cannot meet her needs anymore due to priorities. ”.

Does this mean we can expect an announcement from the JSF that Kanako Murakami will be moving to Toronto to train under Orser?

Or that maybe Miki will finaly dump Morozov and become Brian's student.
Since the JSF is known to think big isn't it just possible that every eligible Japanese skater (except for Mao who prefers to train at home) will soon be at the Cricket Club training with Orser

With such grandiose possibilites who can blame Orser for dumping on Yuna and ATS

[Mathman]

I got your point. But I would like to take the chance to ask you a question since you are a Mathman, who must know logic well: Do you think the following statement (quoted from AT Sports with regard to Brian's revealing her LP music) is logically true or not: "This can ONLY be construed as a move intended to hurt the skater'

Obviously Orser's actions could be construed in many different ways.

From a logical point of view it would have been more interesting if All That had said, "We can reach no other conclusion than that this move was intended to hurt the skater."

This statement could conceivably be true, I suppose, depending on the limits of the imagination of "We."

Anyway, discursive natural language is immensely richer in nuance than the kind of statements that we apply the rules of formal propositional calculus to. To me, the more important point is that I am pretty sure Brian did not make this announcement with any sort of malice toward Yu-na.

[Sylvia]

Orser may have been in closer communication with IMG and the Japanese federation than with Yu-Na recently. During this summer, there was a group of junior skaters from Japan training at the Cricket Club, and personnel from the Japanese federation frequented the club for monitoring.

Do you have a news source/article link for this report?

For what it's worth, I've only heard about ONE Japanese junior lady training at the Cricket Club this summer.

[samsarah]

I can't get over how ugly this has been. If only both sides had communicated better, so much of their problems could have been resolved. Not impressed by how either side handled it. Why allow such a good thing to become so bitter?

I cannot agree more.

Lack of communication? check.
Bad handling of the situation (both by Brian's and ATS's side)? check.

But the thing is, maybe Brian was practically not her coach anymore after the Olys.
An article published by Yuna's former managment stated that they (Yuna and Brian) had an oral agreement ending in April. (more accurately, it stated that the agreement was until the Olys. But I guess since Brian went to the WC with Yuna, they extended it until April)

So maybe this whole thing (and wild speculation on the reason of the split) was unecessary since there was no existing coaching relationship since May.

What Brian and Yuna had after the WC might have been a simple (yet deep) friendship.

Too bad that things b/w them was not resolved in a better way.

[Hanaka]

Orser may have been in closer communication with IMG and the Japanese federation than with Yu-Na recently. During this summer, there was a group of junior skaters from Japan training at the Cricket Club, and personnel from the Japanese federation frequented the club for monitoring. Yu-Na has been training by herself since June. Later in an interview, Orser said Yu-Na’s side might have felt neglected.

Whether the Mao coaching proposal was real is uncertain. Orser had been consistent in his remarks about the Mao contact, until he denied it only in his last interview before he finally stopped talking. Of course Mao, IMG (agent of Mao and Orser) and the Japanese federation have denied this. Regardless of the Mao situation, probably by now Orser’s interests are more in line with IMG’s and the Japanese federation’s, which are much bigger than Yu-Na and All That Sports (Yu-Na’s own agency). Of course nothing’s wrong with it, as it’s his business. But for Yu-Na the club might have become uninhabitable because of this shift in his priorities. If this was the case, it must have been obvious to Orser too, as after all these years he doesn’t need to be reminded where Yu-Na came from and what her needs are. It’s OK that he cannot meet her needs anymore due to priorities. However, it’s senseless of him to say he never expected this to happen and to go one step further to humiliate Yu-Na, while lip servicing all the way that he wishes her the best. If he really meant it, I have to question his common sense. But my bet is on that he did it intentionally and maliciously, and IMG released this ‘Orser gets axed out of blue without being given proper reason’ crap just on the same date Ticketmaster listed All That Skate LA on its website. And it was weird the way he insisted it’s not about the money by needlessly revealing his hourly charges, and conveniently omitting his fees for attending competitions, money from appearing in Yu-Na’s commercials and ice shows, and the bonuses paid to him by various Korean organizations for the success in Vancouver.

Well, for your information, I'd like to tell you that there are people who say that JSF and IMG have not been getting along very well. They say that they(JSF and IMG) often fail to share information and opinions in common.

By the way, there's something I'm interested in. Why does Yuna always set the date of her company's shows on the same date of IMG shows? She did it twice, so this is not a coincidence, but it is clear it was from her intention.

[Daniel5555]

skatinginbc

By saying "Given that I know p→q is true if p is false", I show some (regardless of the amount I demonstrated) of my knowledge about logic. To negate the premise "Skatingbc knows NOTHING about logic" needs only one opposing incident. It is like in order to negate "None of the trees are green", you only have to show "One of the trees is green".

Then you could talk about this statement only, without making another one. Purely the logic is about rules, not about what you should demonstrate with it.

Daniel5555, you probably did not realize when p is false, no matter q is true or false, the whole statement will still be logically true. I was being nice and did not make the "q" part as insulting as could.

When you said p is "obviously true", it gave me an impression that you were monopolising the truth, instead of talking with logic. Poor thing, Daniel, poor poor thing.

No, you don't get it. The whole statement is not true, because just looking at it, you realize, that there is no connection between the fact you know/don't know logic and me knowing/not knowing logic.

I don't know, what you want to achieve with this. Yes, you are capable of making statements "If ..., then" and associate them with p→q. And so what? That doesn't make you capable of logical reasoning.

skatinginbc and all

Making a public statement within the framework of logic is part (though not whole) of maintaining professionalism. In my opinion it was logically flawed to say "This can ONLY be construed as a move intended to hurt the skater" when there existed an alternate explanation (no matter how slim it was perceived) that Brian might have revealed the LP music simply out of mouth slip. In addition, when Yuna said “Stop telling lies”, she already implicitly defined what “the truth” was and therefore, borrowing Daniel way of saying, had asserted “the monopoly of the truth”. Both statements were unnecessarily inflammatory and could have been avoided if Yuna’s camp had a more competent agent.
I have no problem when people say:
1. It is a fact that Brian’s “inconsistent” interviews have been interpreted by some as lying.
2. The ambiguity in Brian’s interviews could be construed as a tell-tale sign for lying.
And I would even go so far as to accept the following argument:
3. Since the ambiguity in Brian's interviews has caused such confusion in many people's mind, we should not blame Yuna for being confused with it as well.

I don't know about what others say, but this is exactly what I try to say. I never said, I think, that Brian was lying for sure. There are 4 possibilities in total and it's hard for me to believe that Brian is lying on purpose.

However, I do have problems when people claim:
1. It is a fact that Brian clearly lied in his interviews (when it is not clear to some people).
2. Skatinginbc has no idea what logic is (it is wrong and unnecessarily inflammatory).
If logic is not important, are we now all speaking out of emotions?

I'm glad you have problems with this. One my problem is why people say like it's a fact that Brian was fired on 2 of August, when ATS says that it was not the case. It is as wrongly as say that Brian was lying from our point of view, because we were not there, we don't know. Brian and Yuna must know who is lying or they may be confused both, but at least they were there and know it better than we.

My main complaint about Brian Orser is the way he made his statements. Let's assume, that he is right and Yuna with ATS were disrespectful to him (that's not a fact, but I can assume it for now, even though I don't believe it).
Let's consider it like this:
"Yuna and ATS were disrespectful to me, because I tried to contact them numerous times, but they ignored me. It is very painful for me, because I considered that we were friends all this time and it's hurting me very much. If, Yuna, you read this, I would like to tell you, that if you have any problem with me, I would like you to tell it me clearly instead of playing dumb, because I don't like it. I also hope, that you will decide what to do with your life yourself, instead of letting your mother do it.
However, said all this I would like to thank you for the wonderful years spent with you. I also hope that you will stay at my Cricket Club, because it's a perfect environment for you and you have a lot of friends here. I am pleased with having you here. I also would like to say, that if you would like to reconsider your decision or just want to ask me something or receive any advice, come to my office. My door is always open for you."

Wouldn't it be the same about Yuna's actions as he presents them, but the tone is entirely different? I'm sure Yuna wouldn't cry if he said it like this. Now talking again about the maturity here...

The only thing we know for sure, because we saw it even on TV, both Korean and Canadian, is how Brian presented his complaints. I think it was an incorrect way. Now who of them caused all this in the first place, who was more disrespectful, etc., we don't know that. I only say that I don't know that. I know that it could be Yuna even though I'm her fan. But it's hard in any case, because both Brian and Yuna have an excellent record of them as persons. So I rather will believe in some miscommunication problem.

[samsarah]

Well, for your information, I'd like to tell you that there are people who say that JSF and IMG have not been getting along very well. They say that they(JSF and IMG) often fail to share opinions in common.

By the way, there's something I'm interested in. Why does Yuna always set the date of her company's shows on the same date of IMG shows? She did it twice, so this is not a coincidence, but it is clear it was from her intention.

I thought it were the IMG shows that were set on the same date with Yuna shows
Again, this is a matter of perspective (depending on which side you are standing for)

By the way, you seem to be a Mao fan (so am I) and I would like to clarify my position on your reply to my former post.

I do not think Mao was a liar, or that she was telling a lie.
It may have been that Mao's side simply sent out some informal feelers to Brian (something like, would you be interested in coaching Mao after Yuna retires?). If this is the case, Mao never gave Brian an "official" offer. So both Brian and Mao were telling the truth.

[janetfan]

According to a few Yuna fanatics is this what Brian is saying:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXEar...eature=related

I don't think so but why does this lyric seem to fit so well

"You're making me say that I've got nobody but you,"

Beatles Forever

[Hanaka]

I thought it were the IMG shows that were set on the same date with Yuna shows
Again, this is a matter of perspective (depending on which side you are standing for)

Sorry, but it can't be. IMG announced the dates of their shows much earlier than Yuna shows.

It may have been that Mao's side simply sent out some informal feelers to Brian (something like, would you be interested in coaching Mao after Yuna retires?). If this is the case, Mao never gave Brian an "official" offer. So both Brian and Mao were telling the truth.

Wow, how scary! Mao had a betrayer in her side! who simply ignored her determination(she repeatedly made it clear to media that she would search for a Japanese caoch.)and will and hope to remain in Japan with her family and friends , train at Chukyo University Rink (and the owner of the rink, Chukyo University wants her to remain there because it makes a huge PR for them.)in Nagoya with her mates like Kozuka, and to have a Japanese coach who can communicate with her in Japanese!

Run, Mao, run!

[samsarah]

Sorry, but it can't be. IMG announced the dates of their shows much earlier than Yuna shows.



Wow, how scary! Mao had a betrayer in her side! who simply ignored her determination(she repeatedly made it clear to media that she would search for a Japanese caoch.)and will and hope to remain in Japan with her family and friends , train at Chukyo University Rink (and the owner of the rink, Chukyo University wants her to remain there because it makes a huge PR for them.)in Nagoya with her mates like Kozuka, and to have a Japanese coach who can communicate with her in Japanese!

Run, Mao, run!

Again, announcing dates are not necessarily the dates which the decisions were made.
We do not know which side, whether it was IMG or ATS (and ATS so far has conducted only 1 show in Korea), who innitially decided the timing of the shows.

And what's wrong with the same dates when one show is held in Japan, and the other show in held in Korea?

Is there an IMG hosted show in Korea which I have not heard of?

edit: Regarding Mao, my point was what is so bad if she had actually informally inquired Brian to be coach after Yuna retires? There is nothing against business ethics if it is after Yuna retires. Besides, Brian would have made a fine coach for her (him being referred as Mr. 3A etc).

There were rumours circulationg in this thread that Brian was seen in Japan possibly around Arpil or early May, (I cannot find the post, but I remember reading it) If that is true, there is a possibility that he considered moving to Japan, if he was to coach Mao. (Again, it would not have been against business ethics since his oral agreement with Yuna practically ended in April).

I admit I am making assumptions based on hearsay comments from uncertain rumors, but I honestly believe, since now Brian is no more Yuna's coach he could be Mao's coach (I am not saying he is willing to, or that Mao wants him as her coach, I just think that Brian would make a fine coach for her).