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Thread: U.S. Ladies Prediction & Speculation Thread

  1. #76
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    If Evan had continued this season he would have received A1 funding. He wasn't the natl champion, only the Olympic champion and Grand Prix Champion and 09' WC.

    Jeremy as Natl champion also received A1 funding.
    Do I need to cite a rule book for giving Evan A1 funding? No, it only takes a teenie bit of common sense.

    Giving Evan A1 funding would not be diminishing Natls or anything else. It would be a matter of recognizing his accomplishments.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post

    But I think Janetfan raises a good point: The way those rules apply they STILL value the national championships a little more than even worlds. To get better funding than the U.S. champ you have to medal plus have the national champ finish lower than 10th, correct?
    It appears that Worlds is valued more highly than the US Championship for the purposes of funding. Make the podium at Worlds, you are in Team A, Tier 1. Maximum $$$$$$. Your National placement is irrelevant.
    Win US Nationals, you are in Team A, but not necessarily Tier 1. You still have to do a little work to make Tier 1.
    Last edited by PolymerBob; 09-04-2010 at 08:35 PM.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    It appears that Worlds is valued more highly than the US Championship. Make the podium at Worlds, you are in Team A, Tier 1. Maximum $$$$$$. Your National placement is irrelevant.
    Win US Nationals, you are in Team A, but not necessarily Tier 1. You still have to do a little work to make Tier 1.
    Bob - show me a post where anybody said Worlds was not important. Please!
    You are making an argument against yourself in a way because for the last few years you have posted often how important the GP series is.

    I hope you realize that the GP series is not the same as Worlds.
    No one cares that Sasha was a GP champion. We sort of remember that despite her talent she never managed to win a WC. A huge difference there, no?

    Again, with all due respect - i have no idea what in the world your point is here.
    If it is about funding - no problem. Mirai came 4th and 7th at the Olympics and Worlds. She beat Rachael at both of the biggest international skating events of the year.

    Yet Rachael beat Mirai at Natls. Rachael has higher funding than Mira. Tell me how Natls are devalued, tell me why US skating no longer cares about it's own premier showcase event of the year
    Last edited by janetfan; 09-05-2010 at 08:26 AM.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Bob - show me a post where anybody said Worlds was not important. Please!
    You are making an argument against yourself in a way because for the last few years you have posted often how important the GP series is.
    I think the same misunderstanding keeps popping up. We were discussing funding envelopes. I will amend my post to avoid confusion.

  5. #80
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    Well, you might be dissappointed there.///
    I am, somewhat. It does seem like the USFSA is trying to become a tiny bit more global and a little less parochial.

    Quote Originally Posted by Polymer Bob
    ...let's face it, no matter how bad our skaters are, there will always be US champions. Our skaters can all zamboni the ice with their butts, there will ALWAYS be US champions.
    Actually, that's how I feel about the Olympic games. No matter how badly everyone skates, every four years there will automatically be another gold medalist to add to the list.

  6. #81
    she takes the audience on her journey of emotions Layfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    It appears that Worlds is valued more highly than the US Championship for the purposes of funding. Make the podium at Worlds, you are in Team A, Tier 1. Maximum $$$$$$. Your National placement is irrelevant.
    Win US Nationals, you are in Team A, but not necessarily Tier 1. You still have to do a little work to make Tier 1.

    Not really. Reverse it. The person who made the podium at worlds ALREADY had do "a little work" to finish 2nd or third at nationals. Basically, the second place or third place finisher at nats has to actually medal at world to get tier 1. But the champion only has to finish 10. I mean, that made it very difficult for Mirai to get tier 1 - but not so much for Rachael. It actually sounds to me like the rules protect the national champion. A top 10 finish is normally not too much to ask for the USA champion. It was for Alissa and Jeremy, I guess, but I'd argue that they LOST tier 1 status when it should have been in bag. It's the second and third place national finishers who are asked "to do a little work" for their tier 1 status, not the national champ.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    I think the same misunderstanding keeps popping up. We were discussing funding envelopes. I will amend my post to avoid confusion.
    OK, thanks and sorry if I missed your point.
    I think we all can agree that team funding and Natl team slection criteria are totally different things.

    In case I ever gave you the impression that Worlds are not important let me tell you how I view it.

    Biggest prize in skating - Olympic medals

    Next biggest - WC medals.

    Next biggest could differ. If you are Yuna undoubtably a GPF medal comes next since Yuna is from a small federation and doesn't even have to compete at her own Natls.

    For US skaters it could vary but I believe most would rather be our Natl champion than the GPF champion.

    In Japan it might be similar. Japanese Natls is big and I think the skaters from Japan take great pride in being Natl Champion.

    For a skater from Estonia the GPF medal might mean more because they have a small federation.

    Nationals has always been big in the US. It has a long and storied tradition.
    I remember Sasha crying when she finaly won the US Championship. Alissa too. I dont think I saw Sasha cry at the GPF.
    I don't think it meant as much to her as finaly winning the US title.
    Last edited by janetfan; 09-04-2010 at 08:50 PM.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Bob - show me a post where anybody said Worlds was not important.
    I think the only people who feel that worlds are not important are the U.S. television networks (together,perhaps with the average U.S. spectator.)

    The ISU has to scramble to get any kind of coverage at all for worlds. I doubt if many casual sports fans in the United States even know when the world championship is going on. In contrast, up to now the USFSA has done everything it could to promote the U.S. championships, and also, to a lesser extent, Skate America. At least these events got some prime time coverage.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think the only people who feel that worlds are not important are the U.S. television networks (together,perhaps with the average U.S. spectator.)

    The ISU has to scramble to get any kind of coverage at all for worlds. I doubt if many casual sports fans in the United States even know when the world championship is going on. In contrast, up to now the USFSA has done everything it could to promote the U.S. championships, and also, to a lesser extent, Skate America. At least these events got some prime time coverage.
    It is the job of US Skating to promote their own National championship. We could say it is also their job to help sell Worlds to the US public. But US Skating does not negociate the TV contracts for Worlds. That would be Speedy.
    Is it any wonder we have such poor coverage

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    It is the job of US Skating to promote their own National championship. We could say it is also their job to help sell Worlds to the US public. But US Skating does not negociate the TV contracts for Worlds. That would be Speedy.

    Is it any wonder we have such poor coverage
    And Speedy is not pleased that the USFSA is not doing what he feels is their share in promoting interest in the USU program in the United States. If I remember correctly the ISU threatened to withhold ISU funding for Skate America last year because the USFSA di not make any effort to secure coverage for the rest of the Grand Prix.

    Ironically, when figure skating was riding high and bringing in big bucks, eveyone praised Cinquanta for his financial acumen. (He is an accountant in real life.) Maybe Speedy is ahead of the curve after all by shifting the emphasis to the Asian market.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by PolymerBob View Post
    Well, you might be disappointed there. Here are the Team A, Tier 1 criteria for the 2009 - 2010 season.

    Team A - Tier 1

    -Medalists (top three) at the 2009 World Championships
    -2009 U.S. senior champions

    And here are the Team A, Tier 1 criteria for the 2010 - 2011 season.

    Team A - Tier 1
    -Placements 1st-3rd at the 2011 ISU World Figure Skating Championships
    -2011 U.S. senior champion combined with a top-10 finish at 2011 ISU World Figure Skating Championships.
    Actually, the more I think about it, no, I don't like this change at all. These kids are still our champions no matter what. If they suffer later disappointments internationally, all the more reason to give them a big group hug, not snatch the funding rug out from under them.

  12. #87
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Back on topic - sort of

    Here is what US Natls is all about:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3rJX0_QqCTE

    Watch her reaction at the end. It was about the thrill of skating so well at her own National championship that evoked this joyous reaction. I don't think she would have reacted the same at any other event including the Olympics, GPF or Worlds.

    Nationals is special! So is this skater - and it was my favorite moment of the season

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Actually, the more I think about it, no, I don't like this change at all. These kids are still our champions no matter what. If they suffer later disappointments internationally, all the more reason to give them a big group hug, not snatch the funding rug out from under them.
    Well, I cannot say that it’s right or wrong, and I WILL NOT say that it's right or wrong. But I think I know why the rule change took place. It was what happened in the latter half of the 2008-2009 season.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    R.D. tried to make a case for 2010 speculating that Ashley would have made the team instead of Mirai if she hadn't fallen on her SP. Mayyyybeee... OTH, if that's how they were thinking you would think they would have given Rachael better treatment, given her fifth place finish at 2009 worlds which is really more impressive than Ashley's fourth at the GP final. Yet Rachael placed third in the SP behind Cohen and Mirai even though Rachael had no clear mistakes. They gave Mirai 70. I mean, they placed her ahead of Sasha Cohen.... My point is, you can try to read into things but in the end, the top two finishers were the ones with the two best skates in 2010. Not the ones with the better results at the GP or any of the rest.
    The more accurate thing to say is that they placed Cohen behind Nagasu, as Nagasu went early. But Cohen flubbed a jumping pass.

    In general, you're right. In 2010, Flatt and Nagasu gave the Committee no choice but to send them to the Games.

    The referees can make calls in a team's favor, but it won't do any good if the team sucks that night...or the other team blows them away.

    Like Janetfan said, I still think rep scoring is rampant at Nationals, but it's not quite as simple as stating that they favor GP results, as it appears we can find just as many counterexamples of that as we can examples.

    To clarify, my point that Wagner would have made the team if she hadn't fallen had nothing to do with her GP results. Rather, it's to say that even WITH the fall she was quite close to getting on the team. Nagasu was always prone to DGs- the real question is (and I said this before)...whether Nagasu would have gotten the benefit of the doubt on the URs had she not been docked at SC. But regardless, I think a clean Wagner would have been marked ahead of a clean Nagasu, and that would be accomplished by giving Nagasu DGs in the freeskate. At least in 2010 that would have been the case. In 2011, now that Nagasu has some international rep, it will be interesting to see how she is marked relative to her competitors. Maybe it won't make any difference (it shouldn't).

    I remember Sasha crying when she finaly won the US Championship. Alissa too.
    Really? I sort of remember Czisny being a little emotional but Cohen?
    Last edited by R.D.; 09-04-2010 at 11:49 PM.

  15. #90
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    Quote Originally Posted by Layfan View Post
    Not really. Reverse it. The person who made the podium at worlds ALREADY had do "a little work" to finish 2nd or third at nationals. Basically, the second place or third place finisher at nats has to actually medal at world to get tier 1. But the champion only has to finish 10. I mean, that made it very difficult for Mirai to get tier 1 - but not so much for Rachael.
    Yes, but Tanith and Ben did not compete at the 2009 National Championships due to injury. They were granted a bye to Worlds and made the podium. That put them in Tier 1, both under the old and new rules.

    I'm not a lawyer, but in the court of law, they have a concept they call "res ipsa loquitur", which essentially means evedence so compelling that no more need be provided. The World podium is "res ipsa loquitur" as far as Tier 1 funding is concerned, but National champion is not.

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