Adelina Sotnikova - flutz or not? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Adelina Sotnikova - flutz or not?

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
The comparison about packaging with Tat/Yags and Mishin/Plushy makes me think Adelina will have an advantage over Liza for now.

The only thing is that I think Liza cares more about artistry than Plushenko did. And I also think Mishin may have learned his lesson. As for outsiders, I think I just meant that Yagudin made an effort to develop artistry and had programs/style that appealed to more.

There really is no other way to say it - it boggles the mind. And when I see these new ballerinas I can't help but compare them to Sasha. I think the more years pass by the more Sasha will be appreciated. She was unique. And still unmatched in some respects. (I might add that's great and a little poignant to see her doing a perfect long program here, knowing what we do about the future. )

In some respects Sasha definetly was unmatched but overall I like Adelina better. Sasha never had the best skating skills or the best jumps, and I think that does matter. Plus I adore Adelina's long arms. I don't think she's like Sasha in that she'll never hit a bad position but her lines/grace is lovely (love the way at times she holds her head.)

Liza's jumps when on might be a bit better when on but I think Adelina's are good too.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
The only thing is that I think Liza cares more about artistry than Plushenko did. And I also think Mishin may have learned his lesson. As for outsiders, I think I just meant that Yagudin made an effort to develop artistry and had programs/style that appealed to more.



In some respects Sasha definetly was unmatched but overall I like Adelina better. Sasha never had the best skating skills or the best jumps, and I think that does matter. Plus I adore Adelina's long arms. I don't think she's like Sasha in that she'll never hit a bad position but her lines/grace is lovely (love the way at times she holds her head.)

Liza's jumps when on might be a bit better when on but I think Adelina's are good too.

Well, there is really no point deciding whether Adelina or Sasha is better as they are of two different generations. The gist of my post is that I feel like Sasha helped inspire skating like Adelina's and some of these younger girls, and that they remind me of Sasha, even though, as you say, their positions aren't quite as perfect as hers. I certainly hope Adeline will be better than Sasha, though. I hope all the new skaters will be better than the older ones.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I saw liza and adelina last year in Cor ex and they were both very promising to watch, adelina in videos has grown up a lot since last year. I dont find her similar to sasha except that they are both elegant because sasha 's extentions were unique and she had more gymnastic kind of stretch with such straight back and her moves where more staccato, adelina looks more ballet style.
 
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Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Hmm. I never thought of it that way. I guess you are right that in some ways Adelina's way of moving is more balletic than Sasha. I've always thought the same about Oksana Baiul too and it's not just because she wore a tutu and emulated ballet steps. It is sort of hard to imagine Sasha really mastering the gentle way that Oksana portrayed a swan. But Sasha will always remind me more of a ballerina than almost any skater in that she had perfect turnout, which is sort of the key to ballet. That's why I'll always prefer Sasha's layback to the layback of young skaters who can touch their tushees with their forehead but have a turned-in free leg.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Hmm. I never thought of it that way. I guess you are right that in some ways Adelina's way of moving is more balletic than Sasha. I've always thought the same about Oksana Baiul too and it's not just because she war a tutu and emulated ballet steps. It is sort of hard to image Sasha really mastering the gentle way that Oksana portrayed a swan. But Sasha will always remind me more of a ballerina than almost any skater in that she had perfect turnout, which is sort of the key to ballet. That's why I'll always perfer Sasha's layback to the layback of young skaters who can touch their tushees with their forehead but have a turned-in free leg...

Thanks seniorita and layfan for those explanations. Actually, I think it is the sometime staccato like movements from Sasha that I like so much, especially on Jazzy or Pop music with it's more modern syncopation.

Another thing though - was the ice presence. Even at 14 Sasha looks so much bigger than she actually was. Liza in particular is nowhere near Sasha as a performer yet. Adelina is closer, but still looks like a very young girl when she skates. Somehow Sasha comes off even at 14 as a very mature, and stylized performer.

Maybe I am reminiscing (or fawning :eek:: ) and I agree with layfan's earlier comment - I hope and expect Liza and Adelina to become better skaters than Sasha as they go forward.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
yes sasha looks amazing and mature for a 14 year old in the video you posted! And with a clear Lp! But she is also a year older than Adelina and Liza now and a year in this age is a lot. She doesn't skate as a junior but also her body is not juniorish if you compare it to the russian girls, she is shorter there but she has muscles and shape, she is not like 1m legs/ 1m arms and thats it. ;)
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
When I was saying I like Adelina overall better than Sasha, I wasn't saying I liked Adelina better as a performer (although its hard to judge Adelina's performance ability on a grainy video) but I like her better as a skater.

Sasha never had the best skating skills or edges or the best jumping technique. What is nice about Adelina is she has really wonderful skating skills/edges and good jumping technique. That's why I like so much what her coaches are doing with her, they are not only giving her great style (and you can see they are careful here) but they are also giving her great basics.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
OK, but let's keep things in perspective. Sasha Cohen was one of the best skaters in the world. Her legacy reaches far beyond her competitive results.

This new girl? We'll have to wait and see.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I haven't gotten as well acquainted with the new skaters as well as I should (time for a trip to YouTube University), but I agree about Sasha. I remember the first time I saw her, and she had the authority of a mature skater even then. That was Nationals the year she was fifteen and almost dethroned Michelle. Recently I was able to access the videos of her the previous year, at fourteen. Even there, she didn't look gangly or tentative. Though of course she improved through the following years, she had the main characteristics of her skating right off the bat. And, like her fellow John Nicks skater Naomi Nari Nam, she pointed her toes. A rare and deeply appreciated trait!
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
OK, but let's keep things in perspective. Sasha Cohen was one of the best skaters in the world. Her legacy reaches far beyond her competitive results.

This new girl? We'll have to wait and see.

I'm not saying she'll have Sasha's success. But a huge part of me blames the Sasha phenoma for skaters like Zhang who don't have very good basics. I'm just glad to see a skater with uber flexibility and those things but also with good basics.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I'm not saying she'll have Sasha's success. But a huge part of me blames the Sasha phenoma for skaters like Zhang who don't have very good basics. I'm just glad to see a skater with uber flexibility and those things but also with good basics.

I think Adelina is already showing how special she is. I hope she will have a great, long career and like you said earlier she has a good team around her and is being groomed for 2014.

I think it is a bit unreasonable to blame Sasha for Caroline's tech problems. It is also kind of odd to compare them at this time because their skating - aside from the flexibilty - has almost nothing else in common.

Sasha is a legendary performer and Caroline is very shy on the ice.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here is the earliest clip I have seen of Sasha -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZ6xEyAyiXM

What a pip she was skating to such music at that age :laugh:

1999! It was a very good year! :)

Naomi Nari Nam, the same age as Sasha, finished second in seniors and threw a huge scare into Michelle. On TV they showed Michelle backstage watching Naomi's free skate with a worried look on her face -- then when she realized the camera was on her she tried to play it off with a wave and a smile. :laugh:

Thirteen-year-old Naomi finished ahead of Angela Nikodinov, a young Sarah Hughes, Amber Corwin, and 1997 World Junior Champion Sidne Vogel.

What might have been. The next year Sasha jumped up to the top (as mentioned by Olympia) and Naomi hit a snag and was never able to compete at the top level again.

At 1999 juniors Sasha beat Jenny Kirk (future world junior champion) and also Elizabeth Kwon, who was being touted at the time as the next Michelle Kwan. The gold medalist, however, was Sara Wheat. (Go Sara!)
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
It's so unfortuante that things didn't work out for Naomi. She had so much star potential.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I think it is a bit unreasonable to blame Sasha for Caroline's tech problems. It is also kind of odd to compare them at this time because their skating - aside from the flexibilty - has almost nothing else in common.

Its not so much a matter of blaming Sasha, but the fact that Sasha (and Sarah) were rewarded when there were some big problems with some things. And I think a lot of coaches decided ie. why should we bother with things like really great skating skills when the judges are rewarding uber flexibility, and why should we bother with great jumps/fully rotated when Sarah gets rewarded for those kind of jumps.

And so we've gotten here in the US I think a whole generation of girls with iffy jumps and really great flexibility but not necessarily the best skating skills. Now Nagasu has some "iffy rotations" but thankfully great skating skills.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
And, like her fellow John Nicks skater Naomi Nari Nam, she pointed her toes. A rare and deeply appreciated trait!

Amen.

And I can't believe Sasha's jumping skills were as bad as Caroline's. Sasha didn't do that corkscrew thing that Caroline does, did she? I know people criticize Sasha's edge work and her flutz but her jumps at least looked straight up and down to me and she didn't seem to have much of mule kick.

Anyhow, it's like Olympia says. It's not just the flexibility that I appreciate in Sasha and some of these younger Russian skaters. It's the attention to detail like pointed feet and turnout and arm positions. Those little things help sell a program and mesermize the audience. Maybe Sasha didn't contribute much to skating in the way of jumps but she did show how far you can go with impeccable positions and presentation. To me that's a legacy.

Now, hopefully Adelina _ or someone down the line _ will achieve something like Sasha's exquisite style AND have great jumping technique. Imagine!

We should start a new thread. It would be "pick three skaters to blend and come up with the perfect skater." For me it would be Michelle + Yuna + Sasha. Who knows maybe one of these baby Russians will achieve Michelle's edge work and emotional artistry + Yuna's speed, power and amazing jump technique + Sasha's flexibility, flair, style and perfect positions.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Amen.

And I can't believe Sasha's jumping skills were as bad as Caroline's. Sasha didn't do that corkscrew thing that Caroline does, did she? I know people criticize Sasha's edge work and her flutz but her jumps at least looked straight up and down to me and she didn't seem to have much of mule kick.

Anyhow, it's like Olympia says. It's not just the flexibility that I appreciate in Sasha and some of these younger Russian skaters. It's the attention to detail like pointed feet and turnout and arm positions. Those little things help sell a program and mesermize the audience. Maybe Sasha didn't contribute much to skating in the way of jumps but she did show how far you can go with impeccable positions and presentation. To me that's a legacy.

Now, hopefully Adelina _ or someone down the line _ will achieve something like Sasha's exquisite style AND have great jumping technique. Imagine!

We should start a new thread. It would be "pick three skaters to blend and come up with the perfect skater." For me it would be Michelle + Yuna + Sasha. Who knows maybe one of these baby Russians will achieve Michelle's edge work and emotional artistry + Yuna's speed, power and amazing jump technique + Sasha's flexibility, flair, style and perfect positions.

Speaking of legacy, it's interesting that several of Sasha's most characteristic flexibility moves, such as the backward Charlotte and that high leg-up-by-the-ear position, are almost universal now. Mao does them, I think Caroline Zhang does...so Sasha is a pathfinder in her way.

I love the three skaters you've chosen to mix up all into one perfect skater! That would be a fun thread.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Speaking of legacy, it's interesting that several of Sasha's most characteristic flexibility moves, such as the backward Charlotte and that high leg-up-by-the-ear position, are almost universal now. Mao does them, I think Caroline Zhang does...so Sasha is a pathfinder in her way.

I love the three skaters you've chosen to mix up all into one perfect skater! That would be a fun thread.

What fun!
How's this - I will try it with only two skaters- Janet and Mao.
I think blending their talents we would see the most fluid and beautiful skater imaginable. The positions, the edges, the expression and musicality would be to die for :love: :
 
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