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Thread: Judges - how are/should they be chosen/kept?

  1. #1
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Judges - how are/should they be chosen/kept?

    Since there's been no work in my office for teh last two weeks my brain has wandered to many random topics. One of which is how the ISU/Skating Federations choose their judges.

    I know anyone and everyone can train and test to be a judge, and then the judges of a competition are chosen from that 'pool' - am I correct?

    What if they did something similar to how we get to vote in our trial judges locally. The judges work hard for years, and are appointed by the peers. Then it's up to their record to keep them in that seat.

    What if the ISU/Federations went that route and allowed skaters/coaches/even fans the ability to vote after each year as to which officials need to be replaced/let go? With the anon. judging factor you couldn't base it on 'oh this judge is nationally biased' but it would keep judges with a reputation out (so long as the voting is anon. so as to give the 'voter' the ability to vote honestly and not worry about repercussions).

    I don't know just a rambly thought, but could something like that work? Or is that how it works now "in theory"?

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the way they do it now is like this. Judges qualify as ISU judges or International Judges (I think International Judges is the higher category) but taking training seminars, tests, etc. But for each competition the judges are nominated by their own federation.

    That is, before championship events there is a random draw among countries as to which country gets to send a judge for a particular discipline. Then the lucky national federation chooses which individual judge they want to send.

    I guess the point is, the ISU is an association of national skating federations. The federation is the membership unit and the federations run the show.

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    Gotta Have Music iluvtodd's Avatar
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    I'll just say one thing about this. IMHO, once they are caught cheating, they should be banned for life! I don't like the idea of a temporary suspension (like one for four years, so that a dishonest judge could conceivably be reinstated in time for an Olympic event).

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    Quote Originally Posted by iluvtodd View Post
    I'll just say one thing about this. IMHO, once they are caught cheating, they should be banned for life! I don't like the idea of a temporary suspension (like one for four years, so that a dishonest judge could conceivably be reinstated in time for an Olympic event).
    How can one prove that a judge was cheating? For example, two judges placed Plyushenko on 20-25th places for the 'skating skills' component in his SP. Was that cheating or that was their view/opinion? Those low points for the skating skills in SP costed Plyshenko the Gold medal. Even if he lost Lys. in LP he could have won by the total for the two programs. (a federation could start an investigation and make a scandal out of that).

  5. #5
    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    I think the cheating comment is related to Yuri Bobrik (I think that's his name), the ice dance foot tapping judge who was caught cheating on tape around 1998 and ended up on an Olympic panel after his suspension in 2002.

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    Gotta Have Music iluvtodd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mskater93 View Post
    I think the cheating comment is related to Yuri Bobrik (I think that's his name), the ice dance foot tapping judge who was caught cheating on tape around 1998 and ended up on an Olympic panel after his suspension in 2002.
    Yes, that is exactly what I meant (and situations like that). Not to mention if bribery has been determined and proven.

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    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    the ice dance foot tapping judge
    maybe he was ice dancing as well?

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellen View Post
    How can one prove that a judge was cheating? For example, two judges placed Plyushenko on 20-25th places for the 'skating skills' component in his SP. Was that cheating or that was their view/opinion? Those low points for the skating skills in SP costed Plyshenko the Gold medal. Even if he lost Lys. in LP he could have won by the total for the two programs. (a federation could start an investigation and make a scandal out of that).
    If I recall Mishin publicly demanded an investigation and was told by NO by his own federation. The Russian federation may have considered filing a protest but after reviewing the programs and scores apparently the Russian federation felt Plushy did not deserve to win (or they were not willing to ruin the spirit of the Vancouver Olympics over this).

    Let's not forget the Dance competition was still to come and since Plushy had a medal I don't think the Russian federation wanted to rock the boat. If they had D/S most likely would never have been gifted the bronze. And then other federations could have appealed the use of the belts which had never been seen before and hopefully such blatant cheating will never be seen again.

    And, as I suspect as hosts of the next Winter games it was not in their best interests to pursue this, especially when we all saw how Dai skated circles around both of them and only got the bronze.

    If the Russian federation had dared to file a protest over the results of the Men's event the problems and backlash would have continued heading to Sochi. It could have hurt the 2014 Olympics and that is the last thing the Russian IOC wants to do.

    2010 was not a good Olympics for Russia and the way to improve is to make sure their athletes are better trained for 2014. Whining about one event would not change the facts that the 2010 Olympics - by Russian standards were a major disappointment.
    Last edited by janetfan; 09-23-2010 at 08:18 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    If I recall Mishin publicly demanded an investigation and was told by NO by his own federation. The Russian federation may have considered filing a protest but after reviewing the programs and scores apparently the Russian federation felt Plushy did not deserve to win.
    According to the ISU rules any protests are forbidden after famous scandal in SLC 2002.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    And then other federations could have appealed the use of the belts which had never been seen before and hopefully such blatant cheating will never be seen again.
    Using belts was not against ISU rules, so there were no grounds for any protests. Besides D/S were first in CD, that means, they were superior in technics.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    2010 was not a good Olympics for Russia and the way to improve is to make sure their athletes are better trained for 2014. Whining about one event would not change the facts the 2010 , by Russian standars was a fiasco.
    yes, agree.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellen View Post
    According to the ISU rules any protests are forbidden after famous scandal in SLC 2002.


    Using belts was not against ISU rules, so there were no grounds for any protests. Besides D/S were first in CD, that means, they were superior in technics.


    yes, agree.
    There is also no ISU rule about wacking your competitor in the knee with a club. That doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

    Hopefully we have seen the last of belt assisted lifts and with a new chairperson for the Dance I don't expect to see such cheating at the next Olympics.

  11. #11
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Mishin didn't officially asked for any investigation, especially before the LP, he had said after the end of Lp that there should be checked the sp marks but there was no official act of his team to the federation.
    One should look the scores analysis of Pitcka that has provided here after Olympics and see that even when judges mark into the corridor, still the most safe is to mark the skater with the less of deviation from the corridor, so even if if high and low and randoms are out it wont harm him from the average score he would get. Plushenko had the biggest deviation in his marks of all men. Looks like judges judged quite sentimental at him, negative or positive.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ellen View Post
    How can one prove that a judge was cheating? For example, two judges placed Plyushenko on 20-25th places for the 'skating skills' component in his SP. Was that cheating or that was their view/opinion? Those low points for the skating skills in SP costed Plyshenko the Gold medal. Even if he lost Lys. in LP he could have won by the total for the two programs. (a federation could start an investigation and make a scandal out of that).
    Actually there was, if not a scandal, at least a vigorous discussion about that, even before the Olympics began.

    It was the Transitions mark, not the Skating Skills, where three judges crucified Plushenko, giving him scores of 5.00, 5.00, and 6.00. This followed Plushenko's famous complaint about getting lower transition scores than Joubert earlier in the year. He saud, "Why did Joubert and I get different marks? We both did the same number of transitions -- none."

    This was picked up in an email that U.S. judge Joe Inman sent around to his fellow judges before the games. Inman was irate about the fact that ISU judges were not paying any attention to the ISU rules about how to score transitions, but instead were just giving out blanket marks across all program components.

    At the Olympics, evidently three judges agreed (and six disagreed) with Inman's view, that you should not give out high scores in transitions for a program that was deficient in that category, no matter how excellent the performance might be otherwise.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Mishin didn't officially asked for any investigation, especially before the LP, he had said after the end of Lp that there should be checked the sp marks but there was no official act of his team to the federation.
    One should look the scores analysis of Pitcka that has provided here after Olympics and see that even when judges mark into the corridor, still the most safe is to mark the skater with the less of deviation from the corridor, so even if if high and low and randoms are out it wont harm him from the average score he would get. Plushenko had the biggest deviation in his marks of all men. Looks like judges judged quite sentimental at him, negative or positive.


    I would expect for Plushy to have the biggest deviation because he has the biggest reputation. We all know how much reputation plays in scoring but fortuately not all judges play the game that way. Some might see no transitions and mark Plushy lower than skaters that have transitions. Some might see Plushy is slower than he used to be, his choreo is not as complex and decide his skating skills are not the best anymore.

    Mishin did alot of complaining - why is that such a surprise or big deal? Frank Carroll probably would have done the same thing - or atleast he certainly has in the past. He complained at US Natls and made it clear that he felt the tech panel was playing politics.

    It's skating - it happens and will always happen. It is a judged sport and CoP can never change that or change reputation scoring either.
    Last edited by janetfan; 09-23-2010 at 08:54 AM.

  14. #14
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Mm have you watched this user, it is a montage of Vancouver sp setting up for jumps in men, and has also other stuff as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    There is also no ISU rule about wacking your competitor in the knee with a club. That doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

    Hopefully we have seen the last of belt assisted lifts and with a new chairperson for the Dance I don't expect to see such cheating at the next Olympics.
    this is like an opposite argument, that doesn't work normally, (i dont know how it is called in english)
    Something like: wacking your competitor in the knee with a club is wrong, wacking your competitor in the knee with a club is in no ISU rule. Using belt is in no ISU rule, so it must be also wrong.
    It is not cheating, it maybe wrong, but right or wrong, they figured out a way to have easier lifts and it was within the ISU rules. You cant call them cheaters for something ISU didnt even bother noticing them not to use it in olympics.

    By the way there is a big difference to mark someone not first because he is not the best, that is fine, than mark him 21st-22nd while the other 6 judges had him from 1st -5th. There should be deviations but this is a big gap, like they were watching another skater.

    about mishin I have given up long time ago, whatever you say, ok.
    Last edited by seniorita; 09-23-2010 at 09:04 AM.

  15. #15
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Actually there was, if not a scandal, at least a vigorous discussion about that, even before the Olympics began.

    It was the Transitions mark, not the Skating Skills, where three judges crucified Plushenko, giving him scores of 5.00, 5.00, and 6.00. This followed Plushenko's famous complaint about getting lower transition scores than Joubert earlier in the year. He saud, "Why did Joubert and I get different marks? We both did the same number of transitions -- none."

    This was picked up in an email that U.S. judge Joe Inman sent around to his fellow judges before the games. Inman was irate about the fact that ISU judges were not paying any attention to the ISU rules about how to score transitions, but instead were just giving out blanket marks across all program components.

    At the Olympics, evidently three judges agreed (and six disagreed) with Inman's view, that you should not give out high scores in transitions for a program that was deficient in that category, no matter how excellent the performance might be otherwise.


    Mishin said the following about the TR controversy - which unfortunately was brought to the forefront by Plushy himself:

    "I am very upset about this war that is being waged against Evgeni."

    But wasn't this only a reaction to Plushy's comments? If it was a "war" then who started it?
    .
    Why does Mishin feel it is OK for his team to play games but then react in anger when anyone holds them accountable for their own words

    But what is the big deal? A little bickering and gamsmanship can be good for skating as it raises the interest level. It has happened many times in the past and will surely happen again in the future.

    BTW, I truly admire Mishin for some of the stories about what a nice man he is away from the ice.
    I am aware of how much he did for Plushy when he was young and so poor. It is such a nice story - and any dispute about a skating medal can never change that.

    Here is another remark Mishin made about Plushy heading into Vancouver:

    "He is better than four years ago."

    At first I was going to say, "sorry Mishin, but Plushy is not as good as he was four years ago."

    Then I thought about it and wondered if maybe the competition Plushy faced in Vancouver was much stronger than it had been in Torino?

    Was Mishin right? Was Plushy a better skater in Vancouver than he was four years ago in Torino?

    Actually I think it was Evan who was a better skater than he had been four years ago in Torino.




    http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb...-adv-2010feb16
    Last edited by janetfan; 09-23-2010 at 02:54 PM.

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