Judges - how are/should they be chosen/kept?

Since there's been no work in my office for teh last two weeks my brain has wandered to many random topics. One of which is how the ISU/Skating Federations choose their judges.

I know anyone and everyone can train and test to be a judge, and then the judges of a competition are chosen from that 'pool' - am I correct?

What if they did something similar to how we get to vote in our trial judges locally. The judges work hard for years, and are appointed by the peers. Then it's up to their record to keep them in that seat.

What if the ISU/Federations went that route and allowed skaters/coaches/even fans the ability to vote after each year as to which officials need to be replaced/let go? With the anon. judging factor you couldn't base it on 'oh this judge is nationally biased' but it would keep judges with a reputation out (so long as the voting is anon. so as to give the 'voter' the ability to vote honestly and not worry about repercussions).

I don't know just a rambly thought, but could something like that work? Or is that how it works now "in theory"?

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, but I think the way they do it now is like this. Judges qualify as ISU judges or International Judges (I think International Judges is the higher category) but taking training seminars, tests, etc. But for each competition the judges are nominated by their own federation.

That is, before championship events there is a random draw among countries as to which country gets to send a judge for a particular discipline. Then the lucky national federation chooses which individual judge they want to send.

I guess the point is, the ISU is an association of national skating federations. The federation is the membership unit and the federations run the show.

I'll just say one thing about this. IMHO, once they are caught cheating, they should be banned for life! I don't like the idea of a temporary suspension (like one for four years, so that a dishonest judge could conceivably be reinstated in time for an Olympic event).

iluvtodd said:

I'll just say one thing about this. IMHO, once they are caught cheating, they should be banned for life! I don't like the idea of a temporary suspension (like one for four years, so that a dishonest judge could conceivably be reinstated in time for an Olympic event).

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How can one prove that a judge was cheating? For example, two judges placed Plyushenko on 20-25th places for the 'skating skills' component in his SP. Was that cheating or that was their view/opinion? Those low points for the skating skills in SP costed Plyshenko the Gold medal. Even if he lost Lys. in LP he could have won by the total for the two programs. (a federation could start an investigation and make a scandal out of that).

I think the cheating comment is related to Yuri Bobrik (I think that's his name), the ice dance foot tapping judge who was caught cheating on tape around 1998 and ended up on an Olympic panel after his suspension in 2002.

mskater93 said:

I think the cheating comment is related to Yuri Bobrik (I think that's his name), the ice dance foot tapping judge who was caught cheating on tape around 1998 and ended up on an Olympic panel after his suspension in 2002.

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Yes, that is exactly what I meant (and situations like that). Not to mention if bribery has been determined and proven.

the ice dance foot tapping judge

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maybe he was ice dancing as well?

Ellen said:

How can one prove that a judge was cheating? For example, two judges placed Plyushenko on 20-25th places for the 'skating skills' component in his SP. Was that cheating or that was their view/opinion? Those low points for the skating skills in SP costed Plyshenko the Gold medal. Even if he lost Lys. in LP he could have won by the total for the two programs. (a federation could start an investigation and make a scandal out of that).

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If I recall Mishin publicly demanded an investigation and was told by NO by his own federation. The Russian federation may have considered filing a protest but after reviewing the programs and scores apparently the Russian federation felt Plushy did not deserve to win (or they were not willing to ruin the spirit of the Vancouver Olympics over this).

Let's not forget the Dance competition was still to come and since Plushy had a medal I don't think the Russian federation wanted to rock the boat. If they had D/S most likely would never have been gifted the bronze. And then other federations could have appealed the use of the belts which had never been seen before and hopefully such blatant cheating will never be seen again.

And, as I suspect as hosts of the next Winter games it was not in their best interests to pursue this, especially when we all saw how Dai skated circles around both of them and only got the bronze.

If the Russian federation had dared to file a protest over the results of the Men's event the problems and backlash would have continued heading to Sochi. It could have hurt the 2014 Olympics and that is the last thing the Russian IOC wants to do.

2010 was not a good Olympics for Russia and the way to improve is to make sure their athletes are better trained for 2014. Whining about one event would not change the facts that the 2010 Olympics - by Russian standards were a major disappointment.

janetfan said:

If I recall Mishin publicly demanded an investigation and was told by NO by his own federation. The Russian federation may have considered filing a protest but after reviewing the programs and scores apparently the Russian federation felt Plushy did not deserve to win.

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According to the ISU rules any protests are forbidden after famous scandal in SLC 2002.

janetfan said:

And then other federations could have appealed the use of the belts which had never been seen before and hopefully such blatant cheating will never be seen again.

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Using belts was not against ISU rules, so there were no grounds for any protests. Besides D/S were first in CD, that means, they were superior in technics.

janetfan said:

2010 was not a good Olympics for Russia and the way to improve is to make sure their athletes are better trained for 2014. Whining about one event would not change the facts the 2010 , by Russian standars was a fiasco.

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yes, agree.

Ellen said:

According to the ISU rules any protests are forbidden after famous scandal in SLC 2002.


Using belts was not against ISU rules, so there were no grounds for any protests. Besides D/S were first in CD, that means, they were superior in technics.


yes, agree.

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There is also no ISU rule about wacking your competitor in the knee with a club. That doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

Hopefully we have seen the last of belt assisted lifts and with a new chairperson for the Dance I don't expect to see such cheating at the next Olympics.

Mishin didn't officially asked for any investigation, especially before the LP, he had said after the end of Lp that there should be checked the sp marks but there was no official act of his team to the federation.
One should look the scores analysis of Pitcka that has provided here after Olympics and see that even when judges mark into the corridor, still the most safe is to mark the skater with the less of deviation from the corridor, so even if if high and low and randoms are out it wont harm him from the average score he would get. Plushenko had the biggest deviation in his marks of all men. Looks like judges judged quite sentimental at him, negative or positive.

Ellen said:

How can one prove that a judge was cheating? For example, two judges placed Plyushenko on 20-25th places for the 'skating skills' component in his SP. Was that cheating or that was their view/opinion? Those low points for the skating skills in SP costed Plyshenko the Gold medal. Even if he lost Lys. in LP he could have won by the total for the two programs. (a federation could start an investigation and make a scandal out of that).

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Actually there was, if not a scandal, at least a vigorous discussion about that, even before the Olympics began.

It was the Transitions mark, not the Skating Skills, where three judges crucified Plushenko, giving him scores of 5.00, 5.00, and 6.00. This followed Plushenko's famous complaint about getting lower transition scores than Joubert earlier in the year. He saud, "Why did Joubert and I get different marks? We both did the same number of transitions -- none."

This was picked up in an email that U.S. judge Joe Inman sent around to his fellow judges before the games. Inman was irate about the fact that ISU judges were not paying any attention to the ISU rules about how to score transitions, but instead were just giving out blanket marks across all program components.

At the Olympics, evidently three judges agreed (and six disagreed) with Inman's view, that you should not give out high scores in transitions for a program that was deficient in that category, no matter how excellent the performance might be otherwise.

seniorita said:

Mishin didn't officially asked for any investigation, especially before the LP, he had said after the end of Lp that there should be checked the sp marks but there was no official act of his team to the federation.
One should look the scores analysis of Pitcka that has provided here after Olympics and see that even when judges mark into the corridor, still the most safe is to mark the skater with the less of deviation from the corridor, so even if if high and low and randoms are out it wont harm him from the average score he would get. Plushenko had the biggest deviation in his marks of all men. Looks like judges judged quite sentimental at him, negative or positive.

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I would expect for Plushy to have the biggest deviation because he has the biggest reputation. We all know how much reputation plays in scoring but fortuately not all judges play the game that way. Some might see no transitions and mark Plushy lower than skaters that have transitions. Some might see Plushy is slower than he used to be, his choreo is not as complex and decide his skating skills are not the best anymore.

Mishin did alot of complaining - why is that such a surprise or big deal? Frank Carroll probably would have done the same thing - or atleast he certainly has in the past. He complained at US Natls and made it clear that he felt the tech panel was playing politics.

It's skating - it happens and will always happen. It is a judged sport and CoP can never change that or change reputation scoring either.

Mm have you watched this user, it is a montage of Vancouver sp setting up for jumps in men, and has also other stuff as well.

janetfan said:

There is also no ISU rule about wacking your competitor in the knee with a club. That doesn't mean it isn't wrong.

Hopefully we have seen the last of belt assisted lifts and with a new chairperson for the Dance I don't expect to see such cheating at the next Olympics.

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this is like an opposite argument, that doesn't work normally, (i dont know how it is called in english)
Something like: wacking your competitor in the knee with a club is wrong, wacking your competitor in the knee with a club is in no ISU rule. Using belt is in no ISU rule, so it must be also wrong.
It is not cheating, it maybe wrong, but right or wrong, they figured out a way to have easier lifts and it was within the ISU rules. You cant call them cheaters for something ISU didnt even bother noticing them not to use it in olympics.

By the way there is a big difference to mark someone not first because he is not the best, that is fine, than mark him 21st-22nd while the other 6 judges had him from 1st -5th. There should be deviations but this is a big gap, like they were watching another skater.

about mishin I have given up long time ago, whatever you say, ok.

Mathman said:

Actually there was, if not a scandal, at least a vigorous discussion about that, even before the Olympics began.

It was the Transitions mark, not the Skating Skills, where three judges crucified Plushenko, giving him scores of 5.00, 5.00, and 6.00. This followed Plushenko's famous complaint about getting lower transition scores than Joubert earlier in the year. He saud, "Why did Joubert and I get different marks? We both did the same number of transitions -- none."

This was picked up in an email that U.S. judge Joe Inman sent around to his fellow judges before the games. Inman was irate about the fact that ISU judges were not paying any attention to the ISU rules about how to score transitions, but instead were just giving out blanket marks across all program components.

At the Olympics, evidently three judges agreed (and six disagreed) with Inman's view, that you should not give out high scores in transitions for a program that was deficient in that category, no matter how excellent the performance might be otherwise.

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Mishin said the following about the TR controversy - which unfortunately was brought to the forefront by Plushy himself:

"I am very upset about this war that is being waged against Evgeni."

But wasn't this only a reaction to Plushy's comments? If it was a "war" then who started it?
.
Why does Mishin feel it is OK for his team to play games but then react in anger when anyone holds them accountable for their own words :think:

But what is the big deal? A little bickering and gamsmanship can be good for skating as it raises the interest level. It has happened many times in the past and will surely happen again in the future.

BTW, I truly admire Mishin for some of the stories about what a nice man he is away from the ice.
I am aware of how much he did for Plushy when he was young and so poor. It is such a nice story - and any dispute about a skating medal can never change that.

Here is another remark Mishin made about Plushy heading into Vancouver:

"He is better than four years ago."

At first I was going to say, "sorry Mishin, but Plushy is not as good as he was four years ago."

Then I thought about it and wondered if maybe the competition Plushy faced in Vancouver was much stronger than it had been in Torino?

Was Mishin right? Was Plushy a better skater in Vancouver than he was four years ago in Torino?

Actually I think it was Evan who was a better skater than he had been four years ago in Torino.




http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb...-adv-2010feb16

janetfan said:

But wasn't this only a reaction to Plushy's comments? If it was a "war" then who started it?

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I don't think it was a war against any particular skater, and I don't think that Plushenko's off-the-cuff humorous remark started it. Plushenko's comment was just the catalyst that Joe Inman and others hung their hat on to bring the issue to the fore.

I think the feeling had been brewing for some time that judges did not really know what to do with all the published criteria and guidelines about how program components were supposed to be scored. The default seemed to be to use the PCS in the same way as the old second mark -- how well did you like the performance overall?

To really get down into the nitty-gritty of scoring each component separately according to how well the performance matched the many "bullets" -- that is a yeoman's task that might be beyond the capacity of merely human judges working in real time.

Exactly. As I recall, Inman's complaint was not against Plushy in particular, but against a prevalent problem in judging. Inman had recently taken part in a seminar with some judges that dwelt on this topic. When Plushy made the comment ,he just provided an example of what the judges at the seminar had been talking about. Inman's expressed hopes that judges actually mark what they see would be in reference to all skaters..not just Plushy.

I have a question - are men and ladies programs scored the same way? If yes, why noone cared about these Transitions in the ladies programs? If one has noticed, most high-scored ladies programs lack these transitions.

The big variation in Plush.'s marks also tells about the fact that judges did not really know where to place him (and Lambiel). It was more or less clear about the current level of other skaters, but the appearance of Plyshy mixed all the cards, besides he skated his SP in one of the first "weak" groups.

I felt the same about Isabel Delobel/Olivie Shonfelder. It was clear that the judges did not know where to put them...

Mathman said:

I don't think it was a war against any particular skater, and I don't think that Plushenko's off-the-cuff humorous remark started it. Plushenko's comment was just the catalyst that Joe Inman and others hung their hat on to bring the issue to the fore.

I think the feeling had been brewing for some time that judges did not really know what to do with all the published criteria and guidelines about how program components were supposed to be scored. The default seemed to be to use the PCS in the same way as the old second mark -- how well did you like the performance overall?

To really get down into the nitty-gritty of scoring each component separately according to how well the performance matched the many "bullets" -- that is a yeoman's task that might be beyond the capacity of merely human judges working in real time.

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Well why did Inman cite Plushy's remarks then? Was it just an after thought? He could have mentioned many other situations/skaters - the Joubert vs Abbot SP from earlier in the season was hotly disputed.

And I did not call it a "war" it was someone else who thought of it in those terms.

I agree about your "nitty-gritty" remark. Realistically, the IJS would work best if all of the judges had a chance to review the jumps as opposed to leaving this in the hands of only three. And there are several reasons I feel that way - and politics is part of it.

In a more perfect world all of the judges could have 30 minutes to watch the program several times, look at some slo-mo and then more carefully fill in the their scores.
I believe that is why 6.0's second mark for presentation was more realistic.

Who did I like better, Joubert or Abbot? That's easy and is easy and clear to show with a 5.8 vs 5.7 or whatever comparitive score a judge felt was appropriate.

It is afterall so very subjective. Breaking it down into categories doesn't make a decision better or worse or any less subjective.

But seeing a judge declare Joubert is Abbot's equal in TR, IN and CH does make it feel wrong and impossible to ignore.

I am sure many fans are still shaking their heads about the point differential between Yuna and Mao in Vancouver. I haven't heard much dispute about who won - but the score differential will be disputed as long as fans can watch clips of their programs.

In this case I see the IJS making decisions harder for fans to accept.

I liked it better when Yuna received a 5.9 and Mao a 5.8.
and if I was judging Mirai would get a 6.0


BTW, why is TR even part of the PCS? Maybe if it was scored as part of TES the judges would be forced to actually evaluate it the way they do other elements. But can there be elements between elements?

Maybe TR should just be considered part of choreo which it sometimes is. Or as part of SS as we see how fancy Patrick can skate into his jump entries.

The whole thing is such a can of worms it brings on a headache

Ellen said:

I have a question - are men and ladies programs scored the same way? If yes, why noone cared about these Transitions in the ladies programs? If one has noticed, most high-scored ladies programs lack these transitions.

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As far as i know the rules about scoring transitions for men and ladies are the same. I just think it is more noticible in men's skating.

In the first place, men do huge elements like quads and triple Axel combinations. You don't want to do any "transitions" on your quad approach for the same reason that a high-jumper, with the bar set at 8 feet, does not stop in the midddle of his run-up and do a cartwheel.

Plus, there is (or at least should be) a little Vive la Difference in figure skating. We do not really want to see a man sashaying down the ice twitching his rear end back and forth just so he can say that he did three rockers and a counter.


Also, I think that women's program have more "grand transitions" (moves in the field and unscored jumps), like Ina Bauers, Charlottes and split jumps.