USOC / NBC Praise for Evan Lysacek

Are we allowed to question the marks of the judges or not? jntfan from one side you said early in the thread Evan won by CoP rules fair and square and judges marked him accordingly etc and he won the competition and this is a fact not an opinion and on the other side you say Takahashi skated briliantly and should have been first if you judged , if we must not debate judges'decision about Evan's win cause it was right decision why we debate Dai's bronze which he won according to same judges and CoP?
Anyway, I have realy no wish to debate any result of Vancouver, this is not my purpose, i just found this statement about takahashi a little confusing. Unless it is just your personal preference and you didnt agree with judges so I can say Kozuka skated briliantrly and should have been also first.
As an opinion also, I dont find Michelle's performance that bad in SLC and Sarah maybe shoud have been lower than 4th in sp, so no matter how she skated in Lp we wouldnt have this conversation either now.

Jeez, I can't even imagine the freak out there would have been if Takahashi had won the OGM with a fall. Not even from Evan fans. What about Plushenko's fans? Plushenko fans freaked because Evan's performance - nearly mistake-free - won over Plushenko's quad-triple/no fall performance. Imagine if they had given it to the guy who fell.

When is that last time an OG winner won with a fall over someone who didn't fall?

There are some instances in which a skater is so superior to others that they can win with a fall I suppose, but I don't think Vancouver was one of them. Do I think Takahashi's skating is inherently superior to Evan's skating? Yes. But it's not like Yuna vs. ... I don't know, Kira Korpi, just to throw out a name. (Not because I have anything against the lovely Kira.)

seniorita said:

Are we allowed to question the marks of the judges or not? jntfan from one side you said early in the thread Evan won by CoP rules fair and square and judges marked him accordingly etc and he won the competition and this is a fact not an opinion and on the other side you say Takahashi skated briliantly and should have been first if you judged , if we must not debate judges'decision about Evan's win cause it was right decision why we debate Dai's bronze which he won according to same judges and CoP?
Anyway, I have realy no wish to debate any result of Vancouver, this is not my purpose, i just found this statement about takahashi a little confusing. Unless it is just your personal preference and you didnt agree with judges so I can say Kozuka skated briliantrly and should have been also first.
As an opinion also, I dont find Michelle's performance that bad in SLC and Sarah maybe shoud have been lower than 4th in sp, so no matter how she skated in Lp we wouldnt have this conversation either now.

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Sorry, sometimes I misunderstand you. Earlier I defended Evan's behavior and also said he won fair and square because the judges decided that he was best.

Here I am saying if I was judging I would have placed Dai first.
There is a difference. I could have placed Dai first and other judges could have voted differently and Evan still would have won.

Further I was making a point based on what Mishin said a couple of years ago - that you can't measue a certain great performance by giving points in the pcs. Certain qualities are a matter of the heart and are always going to be purely subjective. It is about what you feel and never about a score sheet.

My heart says Sarah won in 2002 and Dai won in 2010. I did not say I am right but I did say Michelle's SLC LP was far from her best.
It lacked spark - it was watered down choreo from earlier in the season. She looked cautious and she did not skate to win but skated not to make mistakes and lose - and it showed. When she made a mistake she was done. Not because she missed the flip but because the rest of it was just so-so. It was not inspiring and lacked the "magic" we know Michelle was capable of.

It is interesting because Michelle once again probably listened to her father - the worst "skating mom" I can think of.

Earlier in the year, before she left Frank he knew how she could win and it was not based on outjumping Irina or Sarah.
Frank knew Michelle could beat them on the ground with better, more beautiful skating.

But we did not see that from Michelle in SLC. We actually saw "magic" from 16 year old Sarah who gave the performance of her life.

Layfan said:

When is that last time an OG winner won with a fall over someone who didn't fall?

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Thank you. That is what I thought this discussion was about.

There are two things that there cannot be any argument about.

(1) These contests are over, the judges have given their marks, the winners won and the losers lost.

(2) Everyone has his own opinion as to which performance he liked best.

So now...I agree with Layfan. Under both 6.0 and CoP the judges are going to be very reluctant to give the gold medal to a skater who falls while his rival remains upright.

About Michelle in 2002, she did not have to beat Sarah in the LP. It did not matter what Sarah did. The only thing that counted was whether Michelle would beat Irina or not. Michelle fell. Irina teetered and tottered and came to a dead stop, but somehow managed to keep her feet. End of story.

The only thing that is hard to account for is that four judges put Irina's performance ahead of Sarah's.

Mathman said:

Thank you. That is what I thought this discussion was about.

There are two things that there cannot be any argument about.

(1) These contests are over, the judges have given their marks, the winners won and the losers lost.

(2) Everyone has his own opinion as to which performance he liked best.

So now...I agree with Layfan. Under both 6.0 and CoP the judges are going to be very reluctant to give the gold medal to a skater who falls while his rival remains upright.

About Michelle in 2002, she did not have to beat Sarah in the LP. It did not matter what Sarah did. The only thing that counted was whether Michelle would beat Irina or not. Michelle fell. Irina teetered and tottered and came to a dead stop, but somehow managed to keep her feet. End of story.

The only thing that is hard to account for is that four judges put Irina's performance ahead of Sarah's.

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I am pretty sure that a skater who won the OGM by one of the biggest margins in history fell during the freeskate.
It was during 6.0 era.....gasp

Mathman said:

About Michelle in 2002, she did not have to beat Sarah in the LP. It did not matter what Sarah did. The only thing that counted was whether Michelle would beat Irina or not. Michelle fell. Irina teetered and tottered and came to a dead stop, but somehow managed to keep her feet. End of story.

The only thing that is hard to account for is that four judges put Irina's performance ahead of Sarah's.

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Is that a problem? .

Layfan said:

When is that last time an OG winner won with a fall over someone who didn't fall?

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Sasha Cohen and Slutsakaya with falls were both ahead of Suguri in 2006. Yu-Na with a fall and a completely missed jump was ahead of Mao's clean skate at Worlds (and if she had done that at the Olympics the result would have been exactly the same). Plushenko and Browning with falls in the SPs (on the first part of the combination jump no less, which means they made two big mistakes at the same time) were both ahead of tons of other skaters at their Olympics. Plushenko won 2004 Worlds with a fall over cleaner skates. These kinds of placements happen all the time.

stevlin said:

Now we can't argue with the judges, can we? They are the experts.

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FlattFan said:

Johnny did not get screwed. The rules are published. He just didn't bother to read/follow the rule.

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Pray tell, what "rule" did he not follow? There is no rule anywhere that says his program deserved a lower score for Performance or Interpretation than skaters who were placed above him - that was all the judges doing and, IMO, was the wrong decision.

Everyone is talking about how someone shouldn't be allowed to be Olympic Champion if they fall. If you feel that way then you better be CONSISTENT with your opinion, because Patrick Chan fell on the most important jump of his program and was still placed ahead of Weir. If those two skaters had been the contenders for the Gold Medal, then what would you be saying?

The real answer here is that there is no black and white definition. Someone falling can't automatically be a reason to place them behind another skater or else there would be no point in having a scoring system at all. Everything comes into play and my opinion that Takahashi and Kozuka were better than everyone else despite having a fall is no different than the judges at the competition, the judges you all seem to love so much, declaring that Patrick Chan with a fall (and Lambiel with almost no clean jumps in his entire program, for that matter) was better than Weir.

The only difference is my opinion is based upon actual objective analysis of the programs, whereas the judges' opinions were based upon preconceived notions with politics weighing heavily into their decisions.

janetfan said:

I am pretty sure that a skater who won the OGM by one of the biggest margins in history fell during the freeskate.
It was during 6.0 era.....gasp

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Give me a hint!

Not Kristi, because her rival fell, too, so that doesn't count.

Beatrix Schuba fell in the free skate in 1972, but she was so far ahead in figures that it didn't matter.

Mathman said:

Give me a hint!

Not Kristi, because her rival fell, too, so that doesn't count.

Beatrix Schuba fell in the free skate in 1972, but she was so far ahead in figures that it didn't matter.

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Your are getting warmer. It was a lady and she may have won by the biggest margin ever.

FlattFan said:

Is that a problem? .

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Yes, that's a huge problem. Sarah skated great, Irina was awful, Michelle was OK.

Oh well.

Sasha Cohen and Slutsakaya with falls were both ahead of Suguri in 2006. Yu-Na with a fall and a completely missed jump was ahead of Mao's clean skate at Worlds (and if she had done that at the Olympics the result would have been exactly the same). Plushenko and Browning with falls in the SPs (on the first part of the combination jump no less, which means they made two big mistakes at the same time) were both ahead of tons of other skaters at their Olympics. Plushenko won 2004 Worlds with a fall over cleaner skates. These kinds of placements happen all the time.

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All very interesting, but it does not speak to Layfan's question. Has an Olympic gold medal ever been given to a skater who fell while his chief rival went clean?

Blades of Passion said:

Sasha Cohen and Slutsakaya with falls were both ahead of Suguri in 2006. Yu-Na with a fall and a completely missed jump was ahead of Mao's clean skate at Worlds (and if she had done that at the Olympics the result would have been exactly the same). Plushenko and Browning with falls in the SPs (on the first part of the combination jump no less, which means they made two big mistakes at the same time) were both ahead of tons of other skaters at their Olympics. Plushenko won 2004 Worlds with a fall over cleaner skates. These kinds of placements happen all the time.

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I knew somebody was going to bring up all of these points, and it still doesn't answer my question. My point was that the controversy if Takahashi had won would have just as big (and annoying) as it is now with Evan vs. Plushenko.

I am pretty sure that a skater who won the OGM by one of the biggest margins in history fell during the freeskate.
It was during 6.0 era.....gasp

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I assume you're talking about Kristi but as we all can't forget the '92 women's freeskate was a splatfest and in that context, Kristi WAS the clear winner.

Here is the problem I see from most of you . I have had quite a few discussion /arguments with Imaginary Pogue about 6.0 vs CoP. I will grudgingly admit Pogue may have won (or won me over ) but where we agreed and what the essence of my arguments were is that CoP is not scoring the pcs properly nor is it set up to score them properly.

In today's IJS it should have little bearing on the results if a skater falls. Here I think you are all wrong about Dai and looking at this through 6.0 eyes.

Any skater can theoretically fall, maybe more than once and still win. That is the whole point of the IJS. It is supposed to be about the whole performance and not just the jumps. It is about who skates the best and not about falling once.

Based on that I still would have placed Dai first. It is easy, and not even close in my mind.
The other placements i am not so sure of and admit they would be harder.

What about Plushenko's fans? Plushenko fans freaked because Evan's performance

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Actually if Takahashi had won I would have enjoyed Plushenko's silver much more, it is more like who won rather than who didnt, personal preference of course. I didnt like worlds 2009 as well, with no Plush in the picture then. I dont think the result upset just the plushy fans, I mean I take example from Gs, besides I remember people herecommented at worlds 2009 despite the clear result Takahashi is another story, he is that good and gathers fans of many other skaters, like Lambiel. I dont know what would have been the aftermath but Plushy picked Takahashi as the skater of the future as well.
The bottom line is that I decided not to make a list again because in all the Olympics so far my podium wishes have never come true:scowl:

Layfan said:

I knew somebody was going to bring up all of these points, and it still doesn't answer my question. My point was that the controversy if Takahashi had won would have just as big (and annoying) as it is now with Evan vs. Plushenko.



I assume you're talking about Kristi but as we all can't forget the '92 women's freeskate was a splatfest and in that context, Kristi WAS the clear winner.

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No, not Kristi. This was a huge victory, it was not even close and the winner fell once

janetfan said:

Here is the problem I see from most of you . I have had quite a few discussion /arguments with Imaginary Pogue about 6.0 vs CoP. I will grudgingly admit Pogue may have won (or won me over ) but where we agreed and what the essence of my arguments were is that CoP is not scoring the pcs properly nor is it set up to score them properly.

In today's IJS it should have little bearing on the results if a skater falls. Here I think you are all wrong about Dai and looking at this through 6.0 eyes.

Any skater can theoretically fall, maybe more than once and still win. That is the whole point of the IJS. It is supposed to be about the whole performance and not just the jumps. It is about who skates the best and not about falling once.

Based on that I still would have placed Dai first. It is easy, and not even close in my mind.
The other placements i am not so sure of and admit they would be harder.

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Well, now I'm confused like seniorita was because I thought you were arguing that Evan won fair and square but that Daisuke won in your heart. Now, you seem to be arguing Dai wuzrobbed.

Anyway, thank goodness for Yuna Kim. She's the first skater to win OGM AND win in my heart since Oskana Baiul, only now that I know a little more about skating I feel a little uncomfortable, objectively speaking, about Oskana's defeat of Nancy Kerrigan.

Oh okay, fine. I admit Evan was my sentimental pick despite his flappy arms because he was the only American with a shot at gold entering the FS...

... But that was before I truly discovered Dai...

janetfan said:

No, not Kristi. This was a huge victory, it was not even close and the winner fell once

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ETA: Hint - she was American and a lady and you all know her very well since she is from the modern era.

janetfan said:

No, not Kristi. This was a huge victory, it was not even close and the winner fell once

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Many or Lady? Decade? Nationality?

Or should we just play hot-or-cold... if so, I'm out. I only started watching Olympic figure skating in '92.

Layfan said:

Well, now I'm confused like seniorita was because I thought you were arguing that Evan won fair and square but that Daisuke won in your heart. Now, you seem to be arguing Dai wuzrobbed.

Anyway, thank goodness for Yuna Kim. She's the first skater to win OGM AND win in my heart since Oskana Baiul, only now that I know a little more about skating I feel a little uncomfortable, objectively speaking, about Oskana's defeat of Nancy Kerrigan.

Oh okay, fine. I admit Evan was my sentimental pick despite his flappy arms because he was the only American with a shot at gold entering the FS...

... But that was before I truly discovered Dai...

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The thread started out about Evan's gracious behavior after he won. Naturally Evan got trashed and naturally I defended him.

Tonight I have been saying if I was judging I would have placed Dai first. It has nothing to do with Evan winning or not. It is really a different discussion.

janetfan said:

ETA: Hint - she was American and a lady and you all know her very well since she is from the modern era.

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Dorothy!!!

Layfan said:

Many or Lady? Decade? Nationality?

Or should we just play hot-or-cold... if so, I'm out. I only started watching Olympic figure skating in '92.

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I saw her skate Live when she won Natls before going on to win the OGM. It was in Philadelphia if that helps. The bronze medalist at Natls that year was 14 years old and is my favorute skater. No more hints