Tarasova on working with Asada

miki88 said:

There are a lot of high profile coaching arrangements that did not work out. IMAO. There are probably more failed coaching situations than successful ones. Btw, neither TAT nor Mao made any excuses and both took responsibility for the results, so I don't understand why there needs to be blaming going around. They had a contract for two years and in the end they realized it didn't work out and moved on.

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ITA and Tat's interview only reinforces the amicability and straightforwardness of the split. So what if Mao wants to stay in Japan? She rose to the top of her sport in Japan and if that is where she is happiest, good for her.

I would think people who live in a foreign country might know something about homesickness I sure do at times.

I live abroad too and I love it most of the time but there are definitely moments of "what I am doing here?" I imagine it must be even harder when you are only 19, away from your family, don't speak the language and are under Olympic type pressure. Can't we lighten up on these young skaters once in a while?

Yes, it certainly seemed as if Mao and Tat moved on from each other with the utmost respect. Satisfying to see. I deeply hope that Asada has a good year. She's such a joy to watch.

Olympia said:

For some reason I'm surprised to learn that Alexander Zhulin doesn't speak French. To me he looks like one of those Russian expatriates from the 1920s who lived in Paris and smoked Soubranie cigarettes (hope he doesn't smoke at all, of course!) while dancing the tango with slinky adventuresses in intime little night spots on the Left Bank. I guess this is what skating does to the imagination!

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That's cool! And he does look like that.

miki88 said:

There are a lot of high profile coaching arrangements that did not work out. IMAO. There are probably more failed coaching situations than successful ones.

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You can say the same things about coaches/skaters who are from the same country and speak the same language.

inskate said:

Have you even /read/ the article..?

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Yes, I did, including this explanations of TATthat I find unsatisfactory:

Ptichka said:

1. Languages barrier prevents a coach from imparting certain nuances on the athlete. 2. Japanese culture is very different from ours, as are their views on many things. There are things you’ll never be able to explain unless you grew up in that culture as well. No interpreter will do the trick.

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let`s talk said:

You can say the same things about coaches/skaters who are from the same country and speak the same language.

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Well, I never said this problem was exclusive to situations between coaches and skaters from different countries. I'm not sure if the coaching situation would have worked out if TAT and Mao spoke the same language. They seem to be on the opposite side of the spectrum in terms of personality. This is one reason why I think Sato is a better choice for Mao regardless of culture/language.

let`s talk said:

Internet is fun to see how easily people make themselves look ridiculous. Being under 30yo I have been to 27 countries, speak 4 languages, have been residing and working in a foreign country for 6 years and I am married to the person who doesn't belong to my race or nationality and who doesn't speak my native language. I have intenational and multicultural experiences days and nights but no doubt you know better than me what you are saying about me. Probably exactly the "lack" of that experience makes me think that the language barrier is a strange explanaion, especially for professionals. How about Japanese skaters Dai, Oda, Miki who work(ed) with Russian coaches and they speak to each other in English- a foreign language for both J-skaters and R-coaches. Or French dancers who speak English with their coarch Zhulin since Zhulin doesn't speak French and the dancers don't speak Russian well enough. Or Weir and I can continue. Yes, I do find "language barrier" as an unsatisfactory excuse in the modern FS world, especially for professionals as I said already.
And why did other skaters/coaches' of international backgrounds business relationships became possible and succesfull? My guess is both TAT and Mao had the personalities barrier and they both were not broad-minded enough to overcome it. That's true. And it sounds like a reasonable excuse for TAT but not so reasonable for Mao. Her "I want to live in Japan only" is a stone age stuff for the modern FS world.

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Why do you have such a terrible time accepting the reasonableness of Mao and Tat's totally amicable split and their ability to re-work another arrangement that seems to be more workable for both of them?

And they did all of this DESPITE the language barrier and cultural differences. So what's the problem? Mao and Tat aren't having problems working through and accepting the situation. It's only you who seems to have problems with it.

I just found your attitude bizzare and I assumed that you were culturally ignorant. Your divulgance of your multicultural life surprises me.

The only thing I can say for sure is that Mao still loves and admires TAT. Quite a few people said that their work and relationship as a coach and a student/skater was a failure, and I was one of them sometimes, but it seems Mao's positive and warm feelings toward TAT have never ceased even after they quitted the coach-student relationship.

Mao doesn't say things like "I love Tatiana soooo much!!", but you can tell she still adores and respects TAT by the shining light in her eyes, the warm and positive tone of her voice, and the happy and joyful expression on her face when she talks about TAT.

I find Tat's honest and straightforward manner admirable and honourable. She touched on what many have expressed, and that she realized 'it is completely wrong to put your own ambitions above professional growth of a uniquely talented person who needs your help.' This takes guts to say that, she afterall, is someone who doesn't need to admit to anything and still be revered highly. Unfortunately sometimes things just don't work out simply due to bad timing and bad luck.

Tat and Mao are both geniuses in their field, but as much as they both want to meet their goal, may be they simply didn't want it badly enough - largely due to personal reasons which one'd perfectly understand and empathise. Mao didn't want to move out a Japan while knowing Tat wouldn't be available outside Moscow due to personal matters.

Cultural and Language barriers definitely counts when communication is needed to weigh the success and failure of a program. It is also too easy to generalise that just because one has international experience, she is capable of communicating and understanding effectively. No 2 teams are alike, and each personality came with its own variables.

It would be interesting to know how are processes from the fine nuounces during conception of the program being delivered and executed? How much research did Mao to embrace the Russian heritage of the program? From books? From films? How was it explained to her, did she receive adequate support? And how did she take it all in?

Choreograhy is not just about movements, but embracing the essense of what the choreographer is trying to say as expressed by the capacity and the capability of the performer. Honesty and critical analysis needed to take place between the choreographer/coach and the skater and not simply brushed aside due to etiquette or it will do. If none of these took place other than via second hand information/translation, may be it is unsurprising they weren't as successful as the ambition of the program was aiming for.

I think both Tat and Mao want it bad enough. For TAT she has coached OGM in 3 disciplines, and I am sure she wants to add ladies OGM too. TAT almost got her lady OGM in Arakawa, not sure why they broke up. For Mao, she definitely wants it bad enough, but is TAT the right coach for her? TAT is her mother's favorite, not sure if she is Mao's favorite.

About Mao's research into the Russian heritage of the program, not sure what program we are talking about.

rtureck said:

I think both Tat and Mao want it bad enough. For TAT she has coached OGM in 3 disciplines, and I am sure she wants to add ladies OGM too. TAT almost got her lady OGM in Arakawa, not sure why they broke up. For Mao, she definitely wants it bad enough, but is TAT the right coach for her? TAT is her mother's favorite, not sure if she is Mao's favorite.

About Mao's research into the Russian heritage of the program, not sure what program we are talking about.

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This piece of music Sergei Rachmaninov's Prelude No. 3 Opus 2

I am no expert in Russian history, but I find it interesting that Rachmaninov composed this when he was 19 the same age as Mao at the Olympics. As part of his 'free artist' period, where he was still fresh, idealic and even grandly romantic in his pursuit of abstract visual notion of a grand old Russian Fantasy. So in theory, Tat was right on the ball for picking this music for a grand finale to her career - if it had worked.

During the 1890s in Russia, it was such a inspired and radical time, where you see the paradigm shift of power, the change in theology and the rising prominence of the working class who were the bread and butter that kept the country together as part of its own industrial revolution after series of wars that didn't quite pay off. Rachmaninov was a child of these uncertain but radical & exciting times. He is living and breathing through this radical populists movements, that is all about the people/working class. While Tsar still officially ruled - as political scene shifted, so would the arts, (some would argue arts are usually steps ahead). So my interpretation of this piece of music is that it would almost be like celebration of the majestic Moscow skyline, the slow crumbling of the old, onto the new, be it bloody, tragic and cost of lives, and at the expense of the glorious past with tribute to the grand old traditions, it is with hope but inevitability.

To my sensitive ears, the notes and the harmony is designed to inspire a type of sensationalised gut wrenching rapture - feeling of grandeur, some sort of spectacular visual stimulus that inspires and arouse breathlessness in the audience with the heavy burden of the notes with each strokes of the piano harmony. The notation as interpreted by various concert pianists shows it can be just as free formed as jazz therefore would make it an interesting piece of music to skate to, loose enough for the performer to adapt into their own. In terms of skating, each stroke of the chords, should be somewhat be inspired in the skates and the expression of the skater. The chord / skate need to convey a sense of free form restlessness, and impending mood. It shouldn't be just about seriousness, but a steady build up of the multifaceted moodiness to almost like a passionate celebration of remorsefulness of the music. Whether these has been conveyed in the performance, to some degree perhaps, but IMO it is unfortunately far from perfect.

Mind you, I do realise this likely to be overtly critical, afterall, just how many programs we see these days (with the current COP) truly inspire and honestly reflect the arts and the intention of the piece?

Tat is probably one of the very few choreographer today that has the depth and the proven track record to do this.

I stand by my opinion that the reason the "Bells" program did not work has little to do with Mao. On the contrary, Mao, when she didn't have technical problems, put a lot more into this program than I expected. Honestly, it just wasn't a great program and I felt TAT could have done much better. IMO. A program does not have to bring out the intended feeling of the original piece. I also think the program would have been better if TAT kept most of the original arrangement instead of just using the prelude.

I completely agree, Miki88. The Prelude as written had many more rhythms and colorations than just bang-bang-BANG over and over again. The full-length original has a fast-accelerating middle melody, which to me more effectively adds to what os168 calls the "gut-wrenching rapture" of the piece. Also, to me the orchestration of TAT's version was rather oppressive. Of course she might not have wanted to use the original solo piano rendition for an Olympic long program, but I'm sure I've heard an orchestral version that isn't quite so claustrophobic as the assortment of gongs Mao ended up skating to.

Given that obstacle, I think Mao rose to the occasion admirably. Her performance in Vancouver was a gritty never-say-die triumph. She wasn't psyched out by the amazing Olympics YuNa was having. She uncorked two triple axels that night and did a grand job of everything else. And then at Worlds, seemingly not depleted by the season as so many others were, she sailed off with the gold medal. If that's an unsuccessful program, can you wait to see what a truly great program of hers will be like?

Olympia said:

I completely agree, Miki88. The Prelude as written had many more rhythms and colorations than just bang-bang-BANG over and over again. The full-length original has a fast-accelerating middle melody, which to me more effectively adds to what os168 calls the "gut-wrenching rapture" of the piece. Also, to me the orchestration of TAT's version was rather oppressive. Of course she might not have wanted to use the original solo piano rendition for an Olympic long program, but I'm sure I've heard an orchestral version that isn't quite so claustrophobic as the assortment of gongs Mao ended up skating to.

Given that obstacle, I think Mao rose to the occasion admirably. Her performance in Vancouver was a gritty never-say-die triumph.

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I came across this clip created by a fan with the original piano version of Bells dubbed in over Mao's TEB performance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPL33zP1Etw&feature=fvw

Overlooking some obvious tempo/sync problems -I think Tat's choice of such a pounding, over the top orchestration did not offer Mao the best chances to showcase her versatilty as a skater.

The choreo here looks much too theatrical for the piano version.
It would be easy enough to take a Chopin piece and orchestrate/arrange it in a similar fashion. But then we would miss the contrast and the lightness - not just of the music - but of Mao's skating.

I think many of us love the way Mao skates to Chopin and I wish Tat and Mao would have chosen the piano version of Bells. Of course the choreo would have looked much different and I have no doubt Tat could have come up with a brilliant program for the piano version.

Not every skater might want to use a piano solo for their Olympic LP. But Mao is not just any skater. I think freed from the heavy, relentless sounding orchestral version Tat and Mao might have come up with a masterpiece.

As it turned out, an OSM and a WC is a pretty good result for a program that was criticized by so many of us.

hurrah said:

I assumed that you were culturally ignorant. Your divulgance of your multicultural life surprises me.

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I am sure you feel good to be surprised, much better than you felt when you jumped into ridiculous assumptions.

Posts #29 through 32 rock.

I agree that Mao really tried her hardest at the Olympics, and what she did there showed true grit that really moved me and made me a fan. She did everything she could really (3A x3 incredible) and represented her country honourably.

I agree to a certain extend the music is at fault and do think Piano version probably would have suited Mao better, but the orchestral version might be better at exploring the moodiness of the program - in this respect Tat perhaps should have fixed the music half way through to suite the skater (can a choreographer tweak things that doesn't quite work mid season?).

I would be very curious to see if a Mao fan, or just a fan of the music would try to perform the music pieces to match Mao's movements to show the potential of the program. Because I really think this piece of 'art' really has the potential to inspire like the original piece of music inspired at the time. In her way, Mao is doing her own revolution, against the norm of ladies figure skating and pushing her own artistic boundaries. It is such a pity just didn't work out for one way or the other (unless you only count medals). The last performance of the program was WC2010 was by far superior and I can see Mao was totally into it without visibly thinking 'No mistake I must win' type of attitude. May be being a bit more relaxed helped her focus.

I have also felt the same about Lark Ascending, another favourite program from Yuna that she never skated quite clean. I would love both ladies to revisit their great programs to realise the potential beauty it is still to fulfil. Too much focus has been about winning, but at the end of the day, it is not the medal that moves me, but the beauty they brought to the ice.


Added:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXGSfJn3nKQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5a_e0Vqxz08
These are the original versions performed by Rachmaninov himself. Interesting how less dramatic and more much subtle his intention were, gorgeous chords.

Back to TT as a choreographr for ladies programs. I think the only program I am impressed with was Swan Lake she choreographed for Sasha. The other programs tend to be a bit over the top for the skater. Remember the orchestral fantasia impromptu she did for shizuka? Orchestra's timbre destroyed the flight, impromtu and fantasy of the piece. My impression of TT's music choice is that she loves romantic period music that is dramatic, and she loves turning pieces that were not intended to be dramatic into heavy drama (fantasia impromptu and prelude in c sharp minor come to mind). Heavy orchestral Bells maybe good and Ok for Bonaly, but for an etheral skater like Mao?

By the way who chose the orchestral version of Liebestraum for Mao this yr? Another orchestral version of a solo piano piece. I wish Mao the best.

Thanks to TT and Mao, I have read so much about prelude c sharp minor in skating forums recently. In my cd collection prelude c sharp minor has been a filler piece, and I haven't really paid too much attention to it so far. Some music historians noted that Rach resented prelude in c sharp minor later in life because of the overwhelming success of this piece with the masses. EVerywhere he went ppl expected and demanded him to play the piece, mostly in encore.

Thanks to os168's post about Russian history of 1890. So far off the top of my head the only thing about Russian music of 1890 is debut of prince igor (3 yrs after death of Borodin).

rtureck said:

Thanks to TT and Mao, I have read so much about prelude c sharp minor in skating forums recently. In my cd collection prelude c sharp minor has been a filler piece, and I haven't really paid too much attention to it so far. Some music historians noted that Rach resented prelude in c sharp minor later in life because of the overwhelming success of this piece with the masses. EVerywhere he went ppl expected and demanded him to play the piece, mostly in encore.

Thanks to os168's post about Russian history of 1890. So far off the top of my head the only thing about Russian music of 1890 is debut of prince igor (3 yrs after death of Borodin).

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Rtureck, I always felt the same way about the Prelude. In many ways it seems the least characteristic of Rachmaninoff's works, because he so often uses a cascade of notes (being such a virtuoso himself, he enjoyed composing really complex piano passages). So that dirgelike beginning of the C sharp minor prelude isn't the full sound of his voice to me. I actually prefer the G minor prelude, opus 23 number 5.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VXU7I_Yyi2Y

(Not that I'm saying that this would be something to skate to, though I'd love to see a really inspired choreographer give it a try, but you can see how much looser and freer that piece is than the C sharp minor.)

And, speaking of skateworthy music, the overture to the opera you mentioned, Prince Igor, would be wonderful to skate to. What an amazing man Borodin was. His day job was as a chemistry professor, and he wrote when he could. One opera (finished posthumously by Rimsky-Korsakov and Glazunov), which turned out to be one of the greatest Russian operas; two string quartets, one of which is probably the greatest piece of chamber music in Russian history; three symphonies, and not a whole lot else. I actually saw an ice dance team skate to the slow movement of his second string quartet once. Pure bliss.