THE LONG PROGRAM - why it needs variety and what CoP can do.

[gmyers]

Back to the topic (regarding more interesting programs) - what about the second half jump bonus? Fans of the frontloaders hate this rule but wasn't it created to try make programs more interesting?

Is this rule being abused and making programs dull? Dai takes advantage of the rule and his program was my favorite last season.

I think the rule has been abused to make programs dull and predictable. NBC rain this timer on some skaters and said now it's halfway and jumps will begin. I found it to be like the first half of the program was meaningless.

^ Although, in a way it has always been like that. The free program used to be three programs in one, each completely separate and often performed to completely different and unrelated music.

The skater started out with a bang and did as many jumps as possible till she ran out of steam. Then there was the slow part (imaginatively called the "slow part" ), where she rested. posed, waved her arms languidly, and maybe did a spin or two.

Then after she had caught her breath she went for the final flurry and big big ta-da finish.

This is true but I find it is actually preferable than to what is going on now! I'd rather a middle section be a rest period than the whole first half be a rest period.

[seniorita]

If a program has 3 jumps in the beginning and 5 in the end back to back and a skater killing time in between, then it is as much interesting as a frontloaded program.
So there are the frontloders and the others we call them backloaders?It sounds like Ghostbusters!
Nice thread, Im trying to read from the start now!

How much did Dai take advantage last year of the second half rule?

[Krislite]

Here is a link to an article about Ann. She was a very talented skater but it seemed like it was her mom's dream and not hers..

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=content;col1

Back to the topic (regarding more interesting programs) - what about the second half jump bonus? Fans of the frontloaders hate this rule but wasn't it created to try make programs more interesting?

Is this rule being abused and making programs dull? Dai takes advantage of the rule and his program was my favorite last season.

I think the simplest way to correct this is to maintain the 10% bonus in the second half but limit it to no more than the last 4 jump passes (or 5 for the men). For example, if a lady does 6 of her 7 jump passes in the second-half, then only the last 4 jump passes get the bonus. This way, they'll be encouraged neither to front load or back load a program. And if the program/music calls for it they can back load their jumps, but they won't get an inordinate amount of bonuses for it.

[Mathman]

How much did Dai take advantage last year of the second half rule?

At the Olympics he attempted

4T
3A+2T
3Lo
-------------------
3F+3T*
3S*
3A*
3Lz*
3Lz+2T+2Lo*

If he had been smart he would have put the 2T on the second triple Axel instead of the first. That would have gained him an extra thirteen hundredths of a point.

[seniorita]

Thanx Mm, I really didnt remember it that way from Worlds,i think with Dai time passes fast and you dont realize he is in the second half already
oh damn it so he lost a 0,13??

[janetfan]

Thanx Mm, I really didnt remember it that way from Worlds,i think with Dai time passes fast and you dont realize he is in the second half already

I think I see what you mean - Dai's program really has a nice flow.
Here he is from Worlds - and he does three jumping passes in the first half and five in the second.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_srq3...ext=1&index=29

In skating they try to give the harder jumps more points. Jumps done after the halfway point when skaters are not as fresh are considered harder and thus the 10% bonus.

I think Dai's program was the nicest, best paced and most interesting and creative LP of the year. It had a sense of freedom to it and he used the changing moods of the music extremely well.

[Mathman]

I don't know why I looked this up, but I did. Here is the breakdown of first and second half jumps of all the men in LP at the Olympics.

Lysacek 3-5
Plushenko 5-3
Takahashi 3-5
Lambiel 4-4
Chan 3-5
Weir 4-4
Oda 3-5
Kozuka 3-5
Abbott 4-4
Brezina 3-5
Dennis Ten 6-2
Amodio 3-5
Brezina 5-3
Fernadez 3-5
Schultheiss 6-2
Joubert 5-3
Van der Perren 3-5
Contesti 3-5
Verner 3-5
Bacchini 3-5
Pfeifer 4-4
Lindemann 4-4
Chipeur 4-4 (He got eight hundredths of a point more for his single Axel in the second half than for his single axel in the first half.)
Kovaleski 5-3

[silverlake22]

Contesti and Verner should consider changing the 5-3 format, they both have a tendency to run out of steam at the end of the FS.

[seniorita]

The 3-5 will reign the world I wanna sea a 2-6 please
Lambiel is the only one from the quad guys who didnt have 5 -3 program, and he had two quads!
Schultheiss and Ten
Thank you again Mathman, that was fun!

[Blades of Passion]

As for repeating both the lutz and the flip in the same program, i don't see that as inherently problematic or excessive repetition, and even then it's pretty rare among the ladies.

The only time I've seen it attempted in recent memory is in Rachel Flatt's 09-10 program. Perhaps I haven't seen as many programs as you have but again it seems so rare I don't see the need to add a stringent restriction for it.

It has admittedly become less common than it used to be, but it still happens and skaters often do it because they are leaving out other jumps. Even when female skaters aren't leaving out other jumps, like Flatt, I still think it's excessive. Don't forget how much she gets criticized for her artistry, and also how several of those Lutz/Flip attempts got downgraded at Olympics/Worlds last season. Her programs would look better, and thus she would gain more points, if she focused less on repeating one of those jumps yet again. She's trying to do a 3Loop as the second part of a combination this season, which means she took out the solo 3Loop in order to keep doing two Lutzes and two Flips. Her program would look better if she took out one Lutz or one Flip, which have the most similar entrances among any two scored jumps in the sport, and instead repeated the 3Loop.

You know when you post an absolute statement like that you're begging for a counterexample.
Will this do?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnkypCyLCj8

So you're taking away options, based on your preferences of what has worked well for you in the past and what hasn't. I thought the idea was to give skaters more options?

Darn it, you found one.

Okay, so one program from a Junior skater before CoP. Make note that the program would have been better off with a 3Toe rather than a 3Flip at the end. Ann Patrice takes off from the wrong edge on her Flip, so it's not likely that she would have been able to incorporate that jump as seamlessly if she had to focus harder to take off from a better edge.

I don't see the rule as "taking away options" in a bad way. The Zayak rule is a necessary one and this would just be a slightly further extension of it. I feel that programs would look better 99.999% of the time if female skaters who attempted to repeat multiple jumps from the *3Axel/3Lutz/3Flip* group would instead change one of those jumps to an "easier" jump. If a female skater wants to flaunt their mastery of both the 3Lutz and 3Flip, I think the best way to do it is by putting a 3Toe (or 3Loop, or half-loop+3Sal) on the end of those jumps. I would almost always rather see a 3Lutz+3Toe, 3Lutz, 3Flip+3Toe female program than a 3Lutz, 3Lutz, 3Flip, 3Flip female program (given equally good execution for both programs).

All right. Let’s tackle the femmes, using the Olympic Free Skate as our guideline (presumption that all solo jumps are intended to be triples – except axels, of course, but that’ll be noted)

Number of Skaters that repeated both jumps from the BOP group: 2 - (Asada, Flatt)

Using only the Olympics as the bar isn't enough. A lot of really good skaters don't get to go to the Olympics because of the depth in their countries. Many of those skaters are the ones I'm talking about who repeat both the Lutz and Flip. YUKARI NAKANO only started trying to repeat both the Lutz and Flip because she couldn't get any credit for her 3Axel attempts under the old rules but, assuming she was having problems with the 3Axel and took it out for the season anyway, it's not good that the rules promote female skaters choreographing 4 jumping passes to start with a 3Lutz or 3Flip. Look at her program:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijr4vc6noRk

The first 4 jumping passes are all a Lutz or Flip. It's too static. She is an inventive skater and there is some good choreography in this program, but it's dragged down by so many CoP rules that detract from the flow and look of the whole program. In addition to the "too many Lutzes/Flips" issue, she has that ungainly +2Toe+2Toe combination. Her footwork takes up too much time and doesn't match the character of the program because she's so worried about simply trying to attain Level 3 rather than interpreting the music and moving across with speed and flair.

But I thought the whole point of it was to give skaters more options to showcase a wider range of talents, in a way that befits whatever piece of music or theme they've chosen. If they don't do it optimally, then isn't it better for it to be up to the judges to mark down Choreography or Interpretation or GoE of the element itself?

I don't think females repeating these jumps multiple times showcases a "wider range" of talents, though. As I said in reply to gkelly, trying to do the jumps as part of difficult combinations shows more skill and looks better than simply repeating one of them yet again. It's less of a problem for male programs because they have an additional jumping pass and are also simply better at jumping (generally), so it doesn't look as laborious and the issue of purposefully leaving out certain Triples isn't nearly as common.

As for the Choreography/Interpretation score...yes judges can and SHOULD always do that to buffer against poor choreography that is transparently trying to gain points. I think a proactive rule is good, though. It's like when a dog pees a little on a tile floor. Yeah, it can be cleaned up, but wouldn't we have rather not seen the piss in the first place?

(this topic is the least important one in my manifesto and yet so much talk about it - LOL!)

[Blades of Passion]

How much did Dai take advantage last year of the second half rule?

Dai didn't take advantage of it like many of the other 3-5 layouts do. He put a Triple Axel in the second half of the program after already having done a 3-3 combination and a 3Sal. That's much more difficult, but he didn't get extra credit for it.

It's the same for Kozuka. He put a Triple Axel in the second half after doing a 3Sal-2Toe-2Loop and a Spin in the second half.

These skaters actually choreographed their programs to BUILD and create emotion rather than just sequencing everything to take advantage of the CoP rules. In addition to their awesome skating skills and excellent performances, that is why they deserved the highest PCS at the Olympics.

I think the rule has been abused to make programs dull and predictable. NBC ran this timer on some skaters and said now it's halfway and jumps will begin. I found it to be like the first half of the program was meaningless.

Yeah, I HATE the timer that some broadcasts have used at times to show when the second half of the LP begins. It breaks the feeling of the program because we are pulled out of the performance and start thinking about real-time. That's one of the reasons why watching a film (without checking your watch/phone/DvD menu) is different than reading a book - you can physically feel and see how much of the book is remaining while you read, whereas in a film you aren't quite sure exactly how much time is left (given ideal viewing conditions). It's the same for an ice skating performance - you want to be lost in the moment and feel like time is moving differently.

So, yes, I do think moving the bonus section back to 60% is best. That makes it more difficult to cram in jumps - the skater will be more tired at that point and the bonus will be more deserved. I'll have to consider the exact bonuses that should be given out. Doing more difficult Triples (and Quads) and 3-3 combinations should be given a significantly bigger bonus. That way you wouldn't just see people doing their very hardest jumps earlier and then saving everything else for the 60% mark to get a bonus.

Can you give me an example of level four footwork that has too much major deviations for you?

Lysacek's LP last season (shouldn't have been called Level 4 anyway because he didn't have enough quick turns in both directions).

Samuel Contesti's SP - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQ2TIvOhV_c

Mao Asada, Carolina Kostner, and Miki Ando all attempt Level 4 footwork, but it pretty much always just gets called as Level 3. Still, look at how much time is wasted and how convoluted the patterns become:

Carolina Kostner

Miki Ando

Mao Asada - Asada is better at this kind of footwork than the other Ladies but it's too convoluted and time consuming nonetheless. Clock the amount of time it took to finish that step sequence - 37 seconds for one technical element.

And plenty of others I can't think of off the top of the head. It's frequent that skaters try to get Level 4, though, and can't do it well enough and only get Level 3. They should instead be focusing on doing a really good Level 3 or Level 2 footwork sequence, rather than putting in all kinds of unnecessary and ungainly steps and turns in an attempt to get Level 4.

[gkelly]

Okay, so one program from a Junior skater before CoP. Make note that the program would have been better off with a 3Toe rather than a 3Flip at the end. Ann Patrice takes off from the wrong edge on her Flip, so it's not likely that she would have been able to incorporate that jump as seamlessly if she had to focus harder to take off from a better edge.

And pretty much all her triples were cheated and would have been downgraded by last year's rules -- by this year's most might get the 70% value. So how would her whole strategy have been different if she knew that she had to work harder on getting full rotation for it to be worth including the triples at all.

Also triple toe was always her worst triple, which she doubled in that performance.

One size does not fit all. Different skaters have different strengths and weaknesses. It's unusual for 3T to be the worst triple, but for a real-life skater who can't do it reliably, repeating it would not be a good idea even if BoP thinks it would look better in general on an ideal hypothetical skater.

I don't see the rule as "taking away options" in a bad way. The Zayak rule is a necessary one and this would just be a slightly further extension of it. I feel that programs would look better 99.999% of the time if female skaters who attempted to repeat multiple jumps from the *3Axel/3Lutz/3Flip* group would instead change one of those jumps to an "easier" jump.

And looking better to you is not a good reason for instituting a restriction

A good reason for restricting certain options would be if those options gave some skaters an unfair advantage. But all skaters have the same opportunities to choose which jumps to repeat. Each skater is going to make that choice based on what she can do best.

A good reason would be if choosing that option requires skaters to leave out skills that are considered fundamental (e.g., the recent requirement of "an axel-type jump").

A good reason might be to prevent overuse of skills that are known to have an especially high risk of serious injury.

Restrictions should be made for the good of the sport and the good of the skaters.

If the rules give plenty of options with which each skater can maximize her own scoring potential, you'll see a variety of different program layouts. Some will be more interesting or more aesthetically pleasing than others to you. Other observers may have different preferences or may not care much about the specific choice of jump repeats.

If the rules restrict potential jump layouts, then skaters who are able to do all the jumps with equal reliability will choose whatever distribution of jumps maximizes their points within those restrictions. And you'll see a lot more skaters doing the same layout you thought you would like better, until you get tired of that one too.

If a female skater wants to flaunt their mastery of both the 3Lutz and 3Flip, I think the best way to do it is by putting a 3Toe (or 3Loop, or half-loop+3Sal) on the end of those jumps. I would almost always rather see a 3Lutz+3Toe, 3Lutz, 3Flip+3Toe female program than a 3Lutz, 3Lutz, 3Flip, 3Flip female program (given equally good execution for both programs).

What if she's not capable of putting another triple jump on the back of a combination? What if her "mastery" of the flip and lutz that she wants to flaunt is the fact that she makes very clear distinctions between the inside and outside edge takeoffs, she's capable of doing each with interesting preceding steps or other moves, and she is capable of putting those jumps at the end of the program? There are different ways to make repeated jumps interesting, and you're only allowing some of them. There are also lots of ways to make repeated jumps boring, and no matter what restrictions you put in, there are going to be lots of boring programs. Better to penalize the boring ones for their boringness in the PCS and reward the rarer skaters who do the exact same jumps in interesting ways.




Using only the Olympics as the bar isn't enough. A lot of really good skaters don't get to go to the Olympics because of the depth in their countries. Many of those skaters are the ones I'm talking about who repeat both the Lutz and Flip. YUKARI NAKANO only started trying to repeat both the Lutz and Flip because she couldn't get any credit for her 3Axel attempts under the old rules but, assuming she was having problems with the 3Axel and took it out for the season anyway, it's not good that the rules promote female skaters choreographing 4 jumping passes to start with a 3Lutz or 3Flip. Look at her program:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijr4vc6noRk

The first 4 jumping passes are all a Lutz or Flip. It's too static. She is an inventive skater and there is some good choreography in this program, but it's dragged down by so many CoP rules that detract from the flow and look of the whole program. In addition to the "too many Lutzes/Flips" issue, she has that ungainly +2Toe+2Toe combination. Her footwork takes up too much time and doesn't match the character of the program because she's so worried about simply trying to attain Level 3 rather than interpreting the music and moving across with speed and flair.



I don't think females repeating these jumps multiple times showcases a "wider range" of talents, though. As I said in reply to gkelly, trying to do the jumps as part of difficult combinations shows more skill and looks better than simply repeating one of them yet again. It's less of a problem for male programs because they have an additional jumping pass and are also simply better at jumping (generally), so it doesn't look as laborious and the issue of purposefully leaving out certain Triples isn't nearly as common.

As for the Choreography/Interpretation score...yes judges can and SHOULD always do that to buffer against poor choreography that is transparently trying to gain points. I think a proactive rule is good, though. It's like when a dog pees a little on a tile floor. Yeah, it can be cleaned up, but wouldn't we have rather not seen the piss in the first place?

(this topic is the least important one in my manifesto and yet so much talk about it - LOL!)[/QUOTE]

[Krislite]

[...]

What if she's not capable of putting another triple jump on the back of a combination? What if her "mastery" of the flip and lutz that she wants to flaunt is the fact that she makes very clear distinctions between the inside and outside edge takeoffs, she's capable of doing each with interesting preceding steps or other moves, and she is capable of putting those jumps at the end of the program? There are different ways to make repeated jumps interesting, and you're only allowing some of them. There are also lots of ways to make repeated jumps boring, and no matter what restrictions you put in, there are going to be lots of boring programs. Better to penalize the boring ones for their boringness in the PCS and reward the rarer skaters who do the exact same jumps in interesting ways.

ITA. While BoP's modified Zayak rule may prevent boring/unappealing repetitions of lutzes and flips, it does not prevent bad repetitions of 3T, 3S or 3L. I think it's a rather arbitrary and unnecessary restriction with a very weak justification. We might as well ban boringness from programs.

By the way, Blades of Passion hasn't even talked about how he would modify the program components part of the judging system, which is critical since it accounts for about 50% of a skater's scores.

[Krislite]

It has admittedly become less common than it used to be, but it still happens and skaters often do it because they are leaving out other jumps. Even when female skaters aren't leaving out other jumps, like Flatt, I still think it's excessive. Don't forget how much she gets criticized for her artistry, and also how several of those Lutz/Flip attempts got downgraded at Olympics/Worlds last season. Her programs would look better, and thus she would gain more points, if she focused less on repeating one of those jumps yet again. She's trying to do a 3Loop as the second part of a combination this season, which means she took out the solo 3Loop in order to keep doing two Lutzes and two Flips. Her program would look better if she took out one Lutz or one Flip, which have the most similar entrances among any two scored jumps in the sport, and instead repeated the 3Loop.



Darn it, you found one.

Okay, so one program from a Junior skater before CoP. Make note that the program would have been better off with a 3Toe rather than a 3Flip at the end. Ann Patrice takes off from the wrong edge on her Flip, so it's not likely that she would have been able to incorporate that jump as seamlessly if she had to focus harder to take off from a better edge.

I don't see the rule as "taking away options" in a bad way. The Zayak rule is a necessary one and this would just be a slightly further extension of it. I feel that programs would look better 99.999% of the time if female skaters who attempted to repeat multiple jumps from the *3Axel/3Lutz/3Flip* group would instead change one of those jumps to an "easier" jump. If a female skater wants to flaunt their mastery of both the 3Lutz and 3Flip, I think the best way to do it is by putting a 3Toe (or 3Loop, or half-loop+3Sal) on the end of those jumps. I would almost always rather see a 3Lutz+3Toe, 3Lutz, 3Flip+3Toe female program than a 3Lutz, 3Lutz, 3Flip, 3Flip female program (given equally good execution for both programs).



Using only the Olympics as the bar isn't enough. A lot of really good skaters don't get to go to the Olympics because of the depth in their countries. Many of those skaters are the ones I'm talking about who repeat both the Lutz and Flip. YUKARI NAKANO only started trying to repeat both the Lutz and Flip because she couldn't get any credit for her 3Axel attempts under the old rules but, assuming she was having problems with the 3Axel and took it out for the season anyway, it's not good that the rules promote female skaters choreographing 4 jumping passes to start with a 3Lutz or 3Flip. Look at her program:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijr4vc6noRk

The first 4 jumping passes are all a Lutz or Flip. It's too static. She is an inventive skater and there is some good choreography in this program, but it's dragged down by so many CoP rules that detract from the flow and look of the whole program. In addition to the "too many Lutzes/Flips" issue, she has that ungainly +2Toe+2Toe combination. Her footwork takes up too much time and doesn't match the character of the program because she's so worried about simply trying to attain Level 3 rather than interpreting the music and moving across with speed and flair.



I don't think females repeating these jumps multiple times showcases a "wider range" of talents, though. As I said in reply to gkelly, trying to do the jumps as part of difficult combinations shows more skill and looks better than simply repeating one of them yet again. It's less of a problem for male programs because they have an additional jumping pass and are also simply better at jumping (generally), so it doesn't look as laborious and the issue of purposefully leaving out certain Triples isn't nearly as common.

(this topic is the least important one in my manifesto and yet so much talk about it - LOL!)

My question for you is the justification for this rule (and perhaps even the overall philosophy of your proposed IJS version 2): what is a good justification for a rule and what is not?

Your whole argument seems to be that it would be better, and while I might agree with you, is that sufficient justification for making it a rule? There are a lot of ways each skater could improve their programs. Which of these ideals should be enforced on a skater and which should be left to their choice?

Take the base value of jumps, as an example. The justification behind the increasing scale of values is two-fold: 1) More difficult jumps should as a matter of fairness receive greater reward for their successful execution, and 2) Skaters should be encouraged to attempt technically difficult elements since a skating program should showcase the skater's technical skills and mastery of the technical elements of figure skating.

I agree with you on the overall reason for changing Code of Points: the long program should be less restricted to allow for a greater variety in its structure and components. This would enable more artistic freedom and consequently, better programs.

However, you seem to want to go beyond that: not just allow for more creativity and variety, but to enforce "good" creativity and "better" variety. I say this is not a good justification. Let the judges decide and score a program accordingly whether the elements chosen and executed constitute a good, well-balanced variety and contribute to the artistic interpretation of the music. So if a skater repeats both the lutz and the flip, the judges will either reward or punish such repetition depending on its impact on the overall program and the way in which they were repeated.

This is one of the main reasons why we have GOE for technical elements: we try to separate the objective consideration (base value) from the good/bad evaluations. We don't ban the flutz, the lip or the toe-axel, incorrect and unpleasant as they may be. Instead, poor technique is given its own separate evaluation apart from the jump itself, which has a fixed objective value.

[Blades of Passion]

And pretty much all her triples were cheated and would have been downgraded by last year's rules -- by this year's most might get the 70% value. Also triple toe was always her worst triple, which she doubled in that performance. One size does not fit all. Different skaters have different strengths and weaknesses. It's unusual for 3T to be the worst triple, but for a real-life skater who can't do it reliably, repeating it would not be a good idea even if BoP thinks it would look better in general on an ideal hypothetical skater.

None of Ann Patrice's Triples deserved to be downgraded. Some of them were sketchy but they weren't more than 1/4, taking into account where she left the ice. Her second 3Lutz was actually wonderful.

She wouldn't have to repeat the Triple Toe under the rules I've put forth. She could repeat the Loop or Salchow. Or she could *gasp* only attempt a total of 6 Triples and do another element instead of attempting 7 Triples. Since the Triple Toe is in fact a difficult jump for her, it's likely that she would attempt 2 Lutzes and 2 Flips and leave out the Triple Toe altogether if there wasn't a rule preventing it...it's the EXACT problem I've been talking about. Skaters only focusing on trying to repeat the "most difficult" Triples twice because they are worth the most points, while completely ignoring trying to train other Triple jumps.

And looking better to you is not a good reason for instituting a restriction.

Yes it is. Why do you think the Zayak rule was instituted in the first place? People were thinking "wow, we can't just let Figure Skating become about repeating the same Triple jump over and over and over." My rule is just a slightly further extension of why the Zayak rule was created in the first place. It's simply more desirable to only see 1 repeat of the 3Axel or 3Lutz or 3Flip in a female program.

A good reason for restricting certain options would be if those options gave some skaters an unfair advantage. But all skaters have the same opportunities to choose which jumps to repeat. Each skater is going to make that choice based on what she can do best.

Your logic here isn't sound. Every skater during Elaine Zayak's time had the same opportunity to try and do a ton of Triple Toeloops as well. Nobody was as good at doing that one specific jump as she was, though. She DID have an unfair advantage over other competitors and the issue of females repeating the Triple Lutz + Triple Flip is a similar situation. Why should a female who is capable of doing all 5 Triples receive less points for a 6-Triple program that displays all of the different techniques in comparison to a 6-Triple program from someone who isn't able to do the Loop, Salchow, or Toeloop very consistently and, instead of having to deal with that problem, simply repeated the Lutz + Flip twice?

A good reason would be if choosing that option requires skaters to leave out skills that are considered fundamental

That's what's happening. Skaters are getting more points for doing something repetitive, while leaving out other types of jumps. Do you also disagree with the new rule that only allows 2 Double Axels in a program? I certainly don't.