Ladies - LP | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Ladies - LP

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Lepisto's TOTAL jump content was THREE triples, two 3Ts and a 3Z. All the rest of her jumps were doubles. Based on that, if Carolina Kostner landed SIX triples (two 3Ts, two 3Ss and two 3Lo) she would have more technical content than Lepisto's FS, and wouldn't need a lutz or a flip.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Can you land that in a free skate and have all of them count? Doesn't that break the Zayak rule?

Yes, repeating 3 triples does break the rules. A skater can only repeat 2 triples and the 2Axel can now only be repeated twice. Kostner would have to do something like: 2Axel+3toe, 2Axel, 3Salchow, x3loop+2toe, x3loop, x3Salchow+2loop+2loop, xspread eagle into 2Lutz landing in a spread eagle
 

berrycute

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 14, 2008
Lepisto's TOTAL jump content was THREE triples, two 3Ts and a 3Z. All the rest of her jumps were doubles. Based on that, if Carolina Kostner landed SIX triples (two 3Ts, two 3Ss and two 3Lo) she would have more technical content than Lepisto's FS, and wouldn't need a lutz or a flip.

Well as people have already pointed out, that jumping plan is impossible due to that old Zayak law.

But my point is: Laura lands three triples in difficult passes, gets a tech score of 54.24.
Carolina lands four easier triples (downgraded on one loop, five would be the maximum number of triples she could do without attempting a lutz or flip) and gets a tech score of 47.80. Could turning one double loop into a triple loop push her score up 7 points? No, probably not.

The lesson is, difficult triples and jumping passes are sufficiently rewarded to make a few of them more valuable than a whole set of easier ones. It's quality over quantity, all up.

Are you making a somewhat-veiled criticism that Carolina can score too high without the flip or lutz, provided she lands enough easier triples, or that Laura can score too high with just three triples provided they are the relatively difficult triple toe-triple toe and triple lutz. It almost seems like you are trying to criticize both of them for adopting polar opposite strategies.
 
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Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I just watched some of the clips.

Congrats to Carolina. Her Afternoon of a Faun was pleasant and she seems to really enjoy that music. I know I ranted earlier about Carolina in short skirts but I really liked her LP costume. Anyway. She is still a question mark for me. Is this the best she will be able to do this season?
Chuckm made a good point about her maybe watching Laura Lepisto (who after all IS her biggest European rival) and perhaps deciding to water down her programs. I find that completely understandable and maybe Carolina just wants to skate clean programs and concentrate on her artistry. I think it worked in a way. I did find her more artistic, more elegant than in previous years. But there was no attack. There was no, "I'm going for the best program possible." Laura does exude that. She is perhaps not capable of the hardest jump combinations and she never skates a clean LP but you do at least the sense that she's going for her best possible program... it happened to be enough for bronze at worlds. I don't think Carolina deliberately not going for her best skating will do it. But may she prove me wrong. Maybe a few clean programs will put some confidence back into her skating and she will continue to gain momentum this season. Go Carolina!!

I like Rachael's LP much better than last year's. I still think her Tiffany's was best suited to her but jazz is still a lot better for her than classical. I didn't really think she was "cutesy" like others have said. She can't be counted out for a world medal. But it depends on what the others do. Like if the really Mao Asada comes back to us. I haven't watched her LP. I can't bear it. :disapp:

Malaguena is NOT a good choice for Ashley Wagner. :disapp: I always think her footwork lacks sharpness and speed and this music makes it so obvious. The program looked quite good at the beginning (well, not the botched jumps but the musical interpretation) And then, geez, I've never seen a program lose momentum the way this one did. However, I predict this about Ashley: I think her NHK results will serve as a huge motivator and she'll work very very hard to improve and make up for whatever training time she missed this summer due to illness. We'll see her improve. How much is a question. She can say goodbye to the GP final but that wasn't her goal anyway. She desperately wants to make the world team and I won't count her out for now.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
But it depends on what the others do. Like if the really Mao Asada comes back to us. I haven't watched her LP. I can't bear it. :disapp:

I know. It was tough to watch, even though I kinda expected it since she said she was reworking her jumps. But I think this is needed in order for Mao to be a strong contender in four year. It's the only way for Mao to bring back her lutz and 3/3. It's better to fall now then for her to reach a roadblock by the time the next Olympics comes.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
I know. It was tough to watch, even though I kinda expected it since she said she was reworking her jumps. But I think this is needed in order for Mao to be a strong contender in four year. It's the only way for Mao to bring back her lutz and 3/3. It's better to fall now then for her to reach a roadblock by the time the next Olympics comes.

Thanks Miki! Your post was positive and lifted my spirits about Mao somewhat :thumbsup:
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Tom also coached Ann Patrice, who might not have been the most smiley skater but she had nice positions and decent posture.

she would have smiled had she enjoyed doing what she was doing. poor girl didn't really have a choice.
 

cjsk8fan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
I know. It was tough to watch, even though I kinda expected it since she said she was reworking her jumps. But I think this is needed in order for Mao to be a strong contender in four year. It's the only way for Mao to bring back her lutz and 3/3. It's better to fall now then for her to reach a roadblock by the time the next Olympics comes.

Only thing is, Mao never had a true lutz. I love Mao, but her jump technique has always been questionable. I hope she can fix it. She is such a beautiful skater otherwise.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Only thing is, Mao never had a true lutz. I love Mao, but her jump technique has always been questionable. I hope she can fix it. She is such a beautiful skater otherwise.

Apart from getting edge calls on her lutz, what's wrong with her jump technique?
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Apart from getting edge calls on her lutz, what's wrong with her jump technique?

She's known to under-rotate her jumps and receive downgrades. Lutz and Salchow are problem jumps for her. This season she also seems to have lost her flip too.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
She has issues with the entrances to her toe jumps (flip/lutz). Mao's flip is usually affected when she starts fixing her flutz. The two jumps are kinda related.
I never thought the salchow was such a problem jump for her. I just think Mao doesn't like that jump much. Btw, she has landed all the sals she has attempted so far this season.
 
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chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
It stands to reason that Mao's having flip problems while trying to fix her flutz, because in reality, she's been doing two flips, not lutz and flip. It's too bad that she waited until she was 20 years old to rework her jumps. She's less likely to be successful now because habits ingrained over the past 8 years are hard to undo.

Joannie Rochette successfully reworked her lutz, but she was in her mid teens, and she basically took a year off from competition to just work on that jump. Joannie hadn't had big successes yet, so the 'lost' year was a good investment for the future.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
It stands to reason that Mao's having flip problems while trying to fix her flutz, because in reality, she's been doing two flips, not lutz and flip. It's too bad that she waited until she was 20 years old to rework her jumps. She's less likely to be successful now because habits ingrained over the past 8 years are hard to undo.

Joannie Rochette successfully reworked her lutz, but she was in her mid teens, and she basically took a year off from competition to just work on that jump. Joannie hadn't had big successes yet, so the 'lost' year was a good investment for the future.

It's true it's much more difficult for Mao at her age, but perhaps it was worth the wait in her case. She already won all the big prizes except the Olympic gold. Will Joannie have as much success in the future? I don't know. She certainly has the capability but there are also many young challengers waiting in the wings.
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
Finally saw Mao's LP and felt so sad for her. It is so brave of her to commit to fully overhauling her jump technique, when she has already won Olympic silver and World gold. It just shows how dedicated she is, and just how much she loves figure skating through and through. I have no doubt that Mao will fix her jumps well before Sochi.

On a positive note, I was pleasantly surprised to see that she landed a salchow again, and her speed and flow over the ice had improved. And she was just so, so beautiful.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Well, hello, of COURSE [Carolina Kostner's] skating is going to have more performance factor with all the more difficult technical content gone. Carolina is able to concentrate on the aesthetics a lot more since she doesn't have such a long setup for each jump (her lutz setup used to take her the legnth of the rink!)...

Actually, under the CoP, that is a viable strategy. Sort of like the debate about quads for men.

A skater might well figure it is a better bet to back off the tech and try to win by garnering points in other areas. Under 6.0 judging this could not happen. You had to bring the tech (and cleanly, too.) Then, among those that did, the winner was decided by the second mark. But you couldn't win a major championship with three weak triples no matter what.

The other thing you couldn't do under CoP judging is win the competition in the short program. The most the short program could do was put you in position to skate for the championship in the long.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
It's true it's much more difficult for Mao at her age, but perhaps it was worth the wait in her case. She already won all the big prizes except the Olympic gold. Will Joannie have as much success in the future? I don't know. She certainly has the capability but there are also many young challengers waiting in the wings.

Exactly. She will always be a two-time world champion and an Olympic silver medalist no matter what. Who knows if she is too old to start reworking her technique but she has four years until the next Olympics, so I think it's smart. Even if Mao does have "lost" year, so what? She's already a star.
 

cjsk8fan

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 11, 2005
Didn't Mao also have problems with the triple toe also? I think she has or had problems with all the toe jumps. And didn't she also have a rough start last year too, but came back with an Olympic silver and the World gold.
 

dlgpffps

Final Flight
Joined
Nov 14, 2009
I never thought the salchow was such a problem jump for her. I just think Mao doesn't like that jump much. Btw, she has landed all the sals she has attempted so far this season.

She does the two-footed salchow (instead of letting the free leg simply "sweep" the ice), which can come across as a variant of the 3Lo or 3T. Goebel got into a fuss over this. ISU counts it, though. Purists don't.

I hope her overhaul process addresses the developing mule-kick. It's gotten worse.
 
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