Ladies - LP

[silverlake22]

Evan was packaged well. After all, he did have Caroll as his coach. I also think aesthetics and style matter a little more for the ladies. The problem with Rachel is that she is average in everything. Her technical skills are not good enough to compensate for her presentation.

You wonder though, with the right coach could Rachael ever become a skater like Irina? I mean, Irina wasn't a pretty princess and wasn't very artistic either, but she has lots of fans and won many impressive titles and received good marks from the judges.

Or I mean, Miki Ando? She started out as a jumper with zero artistry. Now I'm sure the fact that she's beautiful and lost a bunch of weight after Torino didn't hurt her, but she is consistently marked well by the judges and regarded as a top skater despite not being particularly artistic.

[museksk8r]

Didn't he coach Jeremy Abbott??

Yes, he did, but Abbott is the exception to the rule. Jeremy was once an ice dancer and he has long trained with a dance/ballet instructor to help develop his skating skills. He also has a sensitivity and sophistication with his style and music choices that is not seen with Tom's other pupils that I mentioned. I could never picture Rachael, Ryan, or Brandon trying to attempt the difficult choreography of a Jeremy Abbott program.

[janetfan]

Tom also coached Ann Patrice, who might not have been the most smiley skater but she had nice positions and decent posture.

[Nadine]

I'm delighted that Carolina won! *clapping* She's got it all, always has had it all, and it showed. She only needs to skate clean or semi-clean and she will always medal, as it should be. Carolina, you're still that *diamond* that was first said about you when you entered seniors years ago (same thing was said about Oksana Baiul as well btw), and that diamond is S-H-I-N-I-N-G brightly! BRAVO! BRAVO! I absolutely adore your "Afternoon of a Faun" program, perfect vehicle for you, superb. Become the World Champion that has always been within your grasp, you just have to skate cleanly and it's yours, gazelle...

And what can I say about Rachael Flatt, ah, you put a smile on my face and I LOVE THIS WHOLE NEW LOOK, Gidget/Doris Day! Finally, you are the skater that I recall when you first entered seniors years ago, that effervescence is back! *clapping* I love your skating, Rach, and that's the honest to God truth. And what's more you truly are a champion in every sense of the word ~ you literally clobber everyone else out there with your mental game/your consistency ~ and that's what makes great champions, never forget that. In fact I haven't seen this type of mentality/consistency since Michelle Kwan. You are a worthy successor to her. One never has to worry about you falling, splatting, stumbling all over the place, Thank God. The only thing that separates you from a World Medal is you need to up the technical ante a bit more with a 3/3, always do at least 6 or 7 triples, no falls/splats. And you'll have to rely on your technical arsenal because your spins are not quite up to par with the rest of the top dogs (totally understandable due to your back), and though your jumps are fully rotated they do not have the same height as those that jump like Irina Slutskaya. Once you capture a World Medal your PCS should go up imho. GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

In conclusion I wanted to say that I don't enjoy falls whatsoever, no matter whence it comes, as Sonja Henie used to say "it shows a weakness". In her day if you fell you were automatically out, as the judges considered it a weaknesss, and I do too. I won't change my mind on that, even for Sasha Cohen. :(

[rain]

This competition was definitely about seeing the potential, not the finished product for me. I think Carolina is already skating her LP a lot better than some of her previous efforts. I noticed particularly that her arms are now elegant most of the time rather than stiff and gawky and her musicality has improved tremendously.

I adore Asada's new LP and think with work this could really be a breakthrough for her. The program itself is absolutely stunning, and it appears that she's actually attempting to make a connection with the music. The jumps were obviously a problem, but I think, in the long run, it is to her benefit to work on these technical aspects now, taking the fall in the beginning, rather than just coasting as she had done in the past.

[chuckm]

This competition was definitely about seeing the potential, not the finished product for me. I think Carolina is already skating her LP a lot better than some of her previous efforts. I noticed particularly that her arms are now elegant most of the time rather than stiff and gawky and her musicality has improved tremendously.

Well, hello, of COURSE her skating is going to have more performance factor with all the more difficult technical content gone. Carolina is able to concentrate on the aesthetics a lot more since she doesn't have such a long setup for each jump (her lutz setup used to take her the legnth of the rink!). OTOH, even with the easier jumps, there were fallouts and inelegant landings. When a skater can't skate clean even with such simple content, I think that should limit the PCS scores.

It seems as if Carolina has looked at Lepisto's world bronze and concluded that there's no need for lutzes and flips since the judges have been giving Carolina high PCS scores with a messy skate. It's a logical conclusion, based on Lepisto's medal, that if Carolina did 6 easy triples, she might win World silver or even (gasp!) gold.

[cjsk8fan]

Well, hello, of COURSE her skating is going to have more performance factor with all the more difficult technical content gone. Carolina is able to concentrate on the aesthetics a lot more since she doesn't have such a long setup for each jump (her lutz setup used to take her the legnth of the rink!). OTOH, even with the easier jumps, there were fallouts and inelegant landings. When a skater can't skate clean even with such simple content, I think that should limit the PCS scores.

It seems as if Carolina has looked at Lepisto's world bronze and concluded that there's no need for lutzes and flips since the judges have been giving Carolina high PCS scores with a messy skate. It's a logical conclusion, based on Lepisto's medal, that if Carolina did 6 easy triples, she might win World silver or even (gasp!) gold.

I couldn't have said it better myself.

[jiggs]

t seems as if Carolina has looked at Lepisto's world bronze and concluded that there's no need for lutzes and flips since the judges have been giving Carolina high PCS scores with a messy skate.

Carolina is and has been injured on her knee for a while and she has only started practicing in the beginning of September. She is still in pain and thats why she chose not to include Flip or Lutz. I am sure she will include them again as soon as her knee is fine (hopefully soon).

[berrycute]

It seems as if Carolina has looked at Lepisto's world bronze and concluded that there's no need for lutzes and flips since the judges have been giving Carolina high PCS scores with a messy skate. It's a logical conclusion, based on Lepisto's medal, that if Carolina did 6 easy triples, she might win World silver or even (gasp!) gold.

I hate to be pedantic, but Laura's WC bronze DID actually include a lutz. She landed a triple toe-triple toe and a triple lutz (both with positive GOEs, BTW). They were her hardest elements, actually Laura doubled all her easier ones. So a good lutz or flip is actually more valuable than you might think. In fact, the Laura situation seems exactly the opposite of what you're implying (a few difficult jumps DOES seem to be as rewarded as many easier ones).

Just saying...

[John King]

Yay, Rachael! I've always liked her as a skater and as a person. A real cutie!

[chuckm]

Lepisto's TOTAL jump content was THREE triples, two 3Ts and a 3Z. All the rest of her jumps were doubles. Based on that, if Carolina Kostner landed SIX triples (two 3Ts, two 3Ss and two 3Lo) she would have more technical content than Lepisto's FS, and wouldn't need a lutz or a flip.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Can you land that in a free skate and have all of them count? Doesn't that break the Zayak rule?

[museksk8r]

Can you land that in a free skate and have all of them count? Doesn't that break the Zayak rule?

Yes, repeating 3 triples does break the rules. A skater can only repeat 2 triples and the 2Axel can now only be repeated twice. Kostner would have to do something like: 2Axel+3toe, 2Axel, 3Salchow, x3loop+2toe, x3loop, x3Salchow+2loop+2loop, xspread eagle into 2Lutz landing in a spread eagle

[berrycute]

Lepisto's TOTAL jump content was THREE triples, two 3Ts and a 3Z. All the rest of her jumps were doubles. Based on that, if Carolina Kostner landed SIX triples (two 3Ts, two 3Ss and two 3Lo) she would have more technical content than Lepisto's FS, and wouldn't need a lutz or a flip.

Well as people have already pointed out, that jumping plan is impossible due to that old Zayak law.

But my point is: Laura lands three triples in difficult passes, gets a tech score of 54.24.
Carolina lands four easier triples (downgraded on one loop, five would be the maximum number of triples she could do without attempting a lutz or flip) and gets a tech score of 47.80. Could turning one double loop into a triple loop push her score up 7 points? No, probably not.

The lesson is, difficult triples and jumping passes are sufficiently rewarded to make a few of them more valuable than a whole set of easier ones. It's quality over quantity, all up.

Are you making a somewhat-veiled criticism that Carolina can score too high without the flip or lutz, provided she lands enough easier triples, or that Laura can score too high with just three triples provided they are the relatively difficult triple toe-triple toe and triple lutz. It almost seems like you are trying to criticize both of them for adopting polar opposite strategies.

[Layfan]

I just watched some of the clips.

Congrats to Carolina. Her Afternoon of a Faun was pleasant and she seems to really enjoy that music. I know I ranted earlier about Carolina in short skirts but I really liked her LP costume. Anyway. She is still a question mark for me. Is this the best she will be able to do this season?
Chuckm made a good point about her maybe watching Laura Lepisto (who after all IS her biggest European rival) and perhaps deciding to water down her programs. I find that completely understandable and maybe Carolina just wants to skate clean programs and concentrate on her artistry. I think it worked in a way. I did find her more artistic, more elegant than in previous years. But there was no attack. There was no, "I'm going for the best program possible." Laura does exude that. She is perhaps not capable of the hardest jump combinations and she never skates a clean LP but you do at least the sense that she's going for [I]her[I][I] best possible program... it happened to be enough for bronze at worlds. I don't think Carolina deliberately not going for her best skating will do it. But may she prove me wrong. Maybe a few clean programs will put some confidence back into her skating and she will continue to gain momentum this season. Go Carolina!!

I like Rachael's LP much better than last year's. I still think her Tiffany's was best suited to her but jazz is still a lot better for her than classical. I didn't really think she was "cutesy" like others have said. She can't be counted out for a world medal. But it depends on what the others do. Like if the really Mao Asada comes back to us. I haven't watched her LP. I can't bear it.

Malaguena is NOT a good choice for Ashley Wagner. I always think her footwork lacks sharpness and speed and this music makes it so obvious. The program looked quite good at the beginning (well, not the botched jumps but the musical interpretation) And then, geez, I've never seen a program lose momentum the way this one did. However, I predict this about Ashley: I think her NHK results will serve as a huge motivator and she'll work very very hard to improve and make up for whatever training time she missed this summer due to illness. We'll see her improve. How much is a question. She can say goodbye to the GP final but that wasn't her goal anyway. She desperately wants to make the world team and I won't count her out for now.