Chan talks about the quad

Ellen · Nov 1, 2010

bestskate8 said:
All his talk about Plushenko doesn't look healthy to me.
Please Chan NO MORE Just go and skate with quad or NO quad!

His next competition in Russia and next Olympics in Russia as well. He probably is wondering how people in Russia will accept him next four years. That damage he did last year by talking not respectfully towards Plushenko’s programs with quads now needs to be fixed. He knows he will get respect from antiplushenko fans in Russia but he more cares about media and main public opinion. It is all about PR now, and I don’t see people will buy his “new” opinion about Plushenko’s quads. inho
At least I don't buy it, anyone else?!

Why does Chan need a respect from Russian audience when he gets it from judges..
Well, after SP at Scate Canada Chan must had been on the last place but he was placed 4th... The refereeing at SC was really strange. Chan's PCs scores were too big. It was very unpleasant to see such favouritism towards one skater. I will go to Moscow Gran Pri Cup where Chan will skate and will see him live. Maybe when watching him on TV I miss something, but I never understood why the judges had always put Chan 5 places higher than he actually deserved...

Hikaru · Nov 1, 2010

oleada said:
Especially when Takahashi is really not one to shy away from doing the quad. He was back doing it in his comeback season from after what could've been a career-ending injury. Hello, he even tried the 4F. And when it comes to musicality, interpretation, and audience involvement, Patrick could learn a thing or two from Daisuke.

And that's an understatement. When it comes to musicality, interpretation, performance, Dai can write a whole book, and Pchan is just doing a paragraph.

Also, Dai went for the quad at the Olys, which Chan didn't do... who's the risk-taker there?

Geez, this guy really irks me.

sunny0760 · Nov 2, 2010

He seems to be confident with his quads.

Good for him!

I always have an impression that he is the type of person who says what he thinks right away.

Unlike some posters in this thread, I don't find his comments on other skaters rude or unappropriate. He did not even criticize someone else.

(Feel for him because he seems to have so many critics in GS...

)

Anyway, I hope he can do his programs without any wonky jumps and falls, highlighting the showcase of his wonderful footworks. Seeing his FS this season made me want to see him better!

figureskatingfan22 · Nov 3, 2010

He's one of the reasons I sometimes think figure skating is like a soap opera. But I have to cut him some slack. He's so often told how great he is, no surprise it got to his head. One example:

Watch the first video "Backstage Pass: Patrick Chan" (not "Chan-tastic") at Skatebuzz! He was interviewed by Debbie Wilkes (Skate Canada’s Director of Marketing and Sponsorship, IIRC) after his short program:

Quotes:

Debbie Wilkes: "I know you where very disappointed, but the program is breathtaking and although the program wasn't delivered the way you wanted to do it tonight, it was still magnificent."
[...]
Patrick: "I hope you don't lose faith in me."
Debbie Wilkes: "Oh, for heaven's sake no, it won't happen. One disappointing skate doesn't make a failure."

I don't like the way she talkes to him here (after this program). It doesn't do him any good to be treated like that most of the time. At the beginning of his career, he was a bit self-confident, but still humble. Now he's just self-confident and IMO part of the reason is the constant praise (and these scores).

----------

You can find more interesting quotes from Patrick Chan in Lynn Rutherford's articles about the Men's short and long at Icenetwork. He's quite aware that the judges like him no matter what.

wallylutz · Nov 3, 2010

My hunch is that Chan is endearing to a lot of judges b/c the vast majority of them are women and Chan, a talented & good looking 19 year old teen who floats across the ice will impress them more than another man who can jump but otherwise boring to watch.

However, Chan got the scores he got b/c he deserved them and any positive impression is merely icing on the cake. Now that he can land Quad in competition, it will make him very difficult to beat.

Mathman · Nov 3, 2010

wallylutz said:
My hunch is that Chan is endearing to a lot of judges b/c the vast majority of them are women and Chan, a talented & good looking 19 year old teen...

But is he as cute as Kevin van der Perren?

janetfan · Nov 3, 2010

wallylutz said:
My hunch is that Chan is endearing to a lot of judges b/c the vast majority of them are women and Chan, a talented & good looking 19 year old teen who floats across the ice will impress them more than another man who can jump but otherwise boring to watch.

However, Chan got the scores he got b/c he deserved them and any positive impression is merely icing on the cake. Now that he can land Quad in competition, it will make him very difficult to beat.

A while ago I made comments that said if Chan skated a clean LP with two 3A's he would be unbeatable.
After watching SC I can see I was right. A clean Chan does NOT need a quad to beat the others.

What I don't get is what happened to the old "technical program." It is no more and what we have are two programs with one being longer than the other.

Can you or anyone tell me that Yagudin could have fallen twice in his SP and then again in his steps and still won in SLC?
I think of Yags as perhaps the most complete male skater I have seen - but as great as he was if he made the mistakes Chan made in the SP at SC Yags would not win.

What am I missing here? I happen to be a Patrick fan and love his skating. That doesn't mean I think he can make multiple mistakes in his SP, another in his LP and still win against a skater like Oda.

Maybe we need a press release from ISU stating the SP is nothing but a shorter version of the LP. Mistakes that in the past were costly no longer matter if a skater has good edges and superior TR.

wallylutz · Nov 3, 2010

janetfan said:
A while ago I made comments that said if Chan skated a clean LP with two 3A's he would be unbeatable.
After watching SC I can see I was right. A clean Chan does NOT need a quad to beat the others.

What I don't get is what happened to the old "technical program." It is no more and what we have are two programs with one being longer than the other.

Can you or anyone tell me that Yagudin could have fallen twice in his SP and then again in his steps and still won in SLC?
I think of Yags as perhaps the most complete male skater I have seen - but as great as he was if he made the mistakes Chan made in the SP at SC Yags would not win.

What am I missing here? I happen to be a Patrick fan and love his skating. That doesn't mean I think he can make multiple mistakes in his SP, another in his LP and still win against a skater like Oda.

Maybe we need a press release from ISU stating the SP is nothing but a shorter version of the LP. Mistakes that in the past were costly no longer matter if a skater has good edges and superior TR.

Your question is serious and very good question so I'll do my best to answer it.

One of the issue with the old Short Program in the 6.0 era is the relativity of marks were out of proportion especially when a skater does an element that is far more difficult than anyone else's, notably Ito's 3 Axel in a SP or Stojko's 4t+3t when it was first introduced. It was very difficult to be exact in the old system. How much is a 4t worth more than a 3Lz in the SP? Nobody knew for sure. Everything else being equal, someone who does a 4t over a 3Lz may score only 0.1 or 0.2 more than another skater. Was that fair?

the 2nd issue has to do with the system limitation. Whereas COP has a much higher theoretical ceiling, the old system can't go higher than 6.0 no matter what. Worrying about running out of room was a major concern among judges in the past, not so under the COP, which is a huge improvement IMO. No more worrying about holding marks back and etc.

In a nutshell, the nostalgia you expressed based on your years of experience as a fan watching the greats like Yagudin taught you that SP acts as in or out system. With a -0.4 for falls in the past, someone who fell on a Quad is pretty much doomed, let alone two falls in a SP. However, the old system was also unfair in failing to properly account for the value and risks of high value elements.

I realize that the system may have changed but to many people, their mentality and understanding hasn't been up to date with time. Given that standings are no longer used as it was in the past, it is only normal that you should also get rid of that in/out SP mentality. there were a lot of things that were inequitable in the past and COP is invented as a mean to address those concerns and IMO, doing a very good job, save the nostalgic factors.

janetfan · Nov 3, 2010

wallylutz said:
Your question is serious and very good question so I'll do my best to answer it.

One of the issue with the old Short Program in the 6.0 era is the relativity of marks were out of proportion especially when a skater does an element that is far more difficult than anyone else's, notably Ito's 3 Axel in a SP or Stojko's 4t+3t when it was first introduced. It was very difficult to be exact in the old system. How much is a 4t worth more than a 3Lz in the SP? Nobody knew for sure. Everything else being equal, someone who does a 4t over a 3Lz may score only 0.1 or 0.2 more than another skater. Was that fair?

the 2nd issue has to do with the system limitation. Whereas COP has a much higher theoretical ceiling, the old system can't go higher than 6.0 no matter what. Worrying about running out of room was a major concern among judges in the past, not so under the COP, which is a huge improvement IMO. No more worrying about holding marks back and etc.

In a nutshell, the nostalgia you expressed based on your years of experience as a fan watching the greats like Yagudin taught you that SP acts as in or out system. With a -0.4 for falls in the past, someone who fell on a Quad is pretty much doomed, let alone two falls in a SP. However, the old system was also unfair in failing to properly account for the value and risks of high value elements.

I realize that the system may have changed but to many people, their mentality and understanding hasn't been up to date with time. Given that standings are no longer used as it was in the past, it is only normal that you should also get rid of that in/out SP mentality. there were a lot of things that were inequitable in the past and COP is invented as a mean to address those concerns and IMO, doing a very good job, save the nostalgic factors.

Thanks for your explanation. I think I have been looking at this too much through 6.0 eyes.
I thought mistakes on the the required elements, particularly the required axel jump, solo jump and combination jump in the SP were more costly than missing a jump in the LP.

If the SP is just a shorter version of the LP then I guess I can see how Chan can make mistakes on two of the three jumps and still only be a few points behind skaters who hit their jumps.

Not sure if I really like it - maybe it is nostalgia for the tension the old SP used to provide.

doubleflutz · Nov 3, 2010

janetfan said:
If the SP is just a shorter version of the LP then I guess I can see how Chan can make mistakes on two of the three jumps and still only be a few points behind skaters who hit their jumps.

Not sure if I really like it - maybe it is nostalgia for the tension the old SP used to provide.

It was still bad scoring/judging, even with the inflated value for the quad this season and lessened penalty for negative GOE. Chan managed to score as high as he did in the short because he was held up, period - on both his PCS and on the GOE for his other elements. All this comparison to 6.0 and discussion of the relative merits or lack thereof is a smokescreen. Does anyone think that any other skater in the world, skating at any other competition, could have fallen three times in the short and still been in medal contention, when their competitors went relatively clean? There are lots of fudge factors in COP, and they were abused to their limits in both segments.

Falling in the SP should not automatically take you out of contention just because you fell, it's true. And sometimes, COP rightly allows skaters who make mistakes in the short to redeem themselves in the long, or capitalize on the mistakes of their competitors, and that's a good thing about the system.

But that is not what happened at Skate Canada. What happened is that Patrick Chan turned in two highly flawed performances, and was awarded a gold for them, over skaters who made fewer mistakes and delivered programs that were just as hard, when you only look at the base value of the elements they actually completed. That's not "looking at things through 6.0 eyes", that's knowing what it looks like when someone is held up.

pangtongfan · Nov 3, 2010

janetfan said:
A while ago I made comments that said if Chan skated a clean LP with two 3A's he would be unbeatable.
After watching SC I can see I was right. A clean Chan does NOT need a quad to beat the others.

"Others" as in guys like Rippon and Oda. :laugh:

What he needs to do to long shot pretenderes like Rippon and Oda at Skate Chanada is a far cry from what he will need to hope to beat Takahashi, Joubert, and others at Worlds in Japan.

Based on the scoring protocals at Worlds last year Chan probably would have lost even with 2 clean performances to Takahashi who essentialy skated a clean quadless short as well and a quadless long with a missed triple flip (which is what his failed quad flip attempt went down in points as after the downgrade and the -GOE). And that wasnt in Japan either. And if Takahashi's quad flip attempt which turned into a missed triple flip in points was replaced by a clean quad toe which would still have been his only quad of the 2 programs combined and Chan's 3 mistakes including the 1 fall had been removed, the scoring gap between them would have been about the 10+ point margin it already is.

So in a real event with actual real competition a clean Chan without a quad is far from unbeatable.

let`s talk · Nov 4, 2010

Mathman said:
But is he as cute as Kevin van der Perren?

evangeline · Nov 4, 2010

doubleflutz said:
It was still bad scoring/judging, even with the inflated value for the quad this season and lessened penalty for negative GOE. Chan managed to score as high as he did in the short because he was held up, period - on both his PCS and on the GOE for his other elements. All this comparison to 6.0 and discussion of the relative merits or lack thereof is a smokescreen. Does anyone think that any other skater in the world, skating at any other competition, could have fallen three times in the short and still been in medal contention, when their competitors went relatively clean? There are lots of fudge factors in COP, and they were abused to their limits in both segments.

Falling in the SP should not automatically take you out of contention just because you fell, it's true. And sometimes, COP rightly allows skaters who make mistakes in the short to redeem themselves in the long, or capitalize on the mistakes of their competitors, and that's a good thing about the system.

But that is not what happened at Skate Canada. What happened is that Patrick Chan turned in two highly flawed performances, and was awarded a gold for them, over skaters who made fewer mistakes and delivered programs that were just as hard, when you only look at the base value of the elements they actually completed. That's not "looking at things through 6.0 eyes", that's knowing what it looks like when someone is held up.

Exactly. A three-fall performance is a bad performance whether the the three falls took place in a SP or a LP, or under 6.0 or CoP, and should be penalized accordingly.

silverlake22 · Nov 4, 2010

wallylutz said:
My hunch is that Chan is endearing to a lot of judges b/c the vast majority of them are women and Chan, a talented & good looking 19 year old teen who floats across the ice will impress them more than another man who can jump but otherwise boring to watch.

However, Chan got the scores he got b/c he deserved them and any positive impression is merely icing on the cake. Now that he can land Quad in competition, it will make him very difficult to beat.

I mean I guess Chan is cute, but I mean I don't think his appeal is as universal as that of say, Brian Joubert. Not everyone is into small, bug-eyed Asian men with boyish faces.

Chan talks about the quad

Ellen

Hikaru

sunny0760

figureskatingfan22

wallylutz

Mathman

janetfan

Match Penalty

wallylutz

janetfan

Match Penalty

doubleflutz

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

let`s talk

Match Penalty

evangeline

silverlake22

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