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Thread: Virtual Program and Preview Free Dance, Sunday, Oct 31, 12:15 EST

  1. #151
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    , It's really quite exciting to have such great depth in ice dance in Canada!
    Yes, I am very excited about all of them too, but a little crushed at the disappearance of Harvey/Gagnon.

    As stated, I think the order was correct, but was there really 20 points between 6th and 7th? I'm not convinced.
    Well, let's see. I've copied all this stuff from the protocols:

    Nebelhorn FD

    Base 37.00
    TES 39.86
    PCS 35.75
    Overall 74.61

    CULI4
    STW4
    CIST2
    ROLI4
    COSP4
    SlLi4
    DiSt3
    ROLi2

    Skate Canada FD
    base 34.50
    total 67.57
    TES 36.08
    PCS 31.49

    culi4
    stw4
    cist2
    roli4
    cosp4
    dist2
    roli1


    So in the FD, they lost 2.5 points in base value of TES for nearly 4 points overall in TES.
    In PCS, 4.25 point loss: this is the part that might be questionable. However, when you are not skating your elements at your best in dance, it is often so that your PCS are not your best either. This is a bit of an empty argument, because it does not appear to apply to Patrick Chan's grades, but IMO it's how it should go, and usually how it does go in dance (one reason it is my favorite discipline these days).

    So overall, they have lost about 8.5 points on the FD vs. Nebelhorn.

    On the SD:

    Here the differences are more stark:
    At Nebelhorn SD
    Base 26.0
    TES 26.93
    PCS 22.38
    total 49.31

    NTmist2
    stw3
    GW2SE2
    GW1SE4
    RoLi4

    Skate Canada SD
    base 21
    TES 20.29 (some negative GOE's here)
    PCS 19.78
    total 40.07

    ntmist1
    stw3
    gw2se2
    gw1se1
    roli4

    Here they lost about 9.3 points. But it's important to note that their GW was significantly worse.
    5 of the points lost were in base value alone.

    Again, they lost some in PCS too, but they made significantly more technical errors-so this may well be correct.

    I didn't see their Nebelhorn programs, but the protocols are fairly consistent with the scores-more problems in both programs at Skate Canada.

    It looks like they were not their best at Skate Canada and were at Nebelhorn.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-01-2010 at 04:16 PM.

  2. #152
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    The best team won.

    And enough of the P/I bashing. Some people will definitely hate anything Canadian in here...

  3. #153
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    I didn't like the flower/pom-pom/sporran thing on Vanessa either ,and agree Paul's shirt would have been better solid , but it's such a teeny quibble compared to their usual costume problems, I'd be willing to live with it if they don't change it. ..It would be nice if the whole thing was ideal, though.

  4. #154
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    colleen, that's very true.
    They are not bad costumes at all, and you're right, they are a big improvement from, say Vanessa's SD costume and hair style. But it's such a good dance that it's a shame to not fix the little things that could make it better, just by avoiding distracting from the dance.

    After all, it costs nothing to remove a flower or a belt. The rest of the dress is just right for her IMO! A big step.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-01-2010 at 06:42 PM.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn View Post
    The best team won.

    And enough of the P/I bashing. Some people will definitely hate anything Canadian in here...
    I'm the guy that's been criticizing them the most, and I can assure you I don't fit the latter portion of your statement.

  6. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I'm the guy that's been criticizing them the most, and I can assure you I don't fit the latter portion of your statement.
    I did not target anyone, but you gotta admit it does happens any time there is a competition in Canada, more so when a young talented dance team gets a good result.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn View Post
    I did not target anyone, but you gotta admit it does happens any time there is a competition in Canada, more so when a young talented dance team gets a good result.
    Oh, without a doubt, but it happens to virtually all Canadian skaters.

  8. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Oh, without a doubt, but it happens to virtually all Canadian skaters.
    Exactly. Am I allowed to be somewhat annoyed by that?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BigJohn View Post
    Exactly. Am I allowed to be somewhat annoyed by that?
    Yep.

  10. #160
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    And it happens to all the other skaters, too. Just the people writing the posts change. As long as the criticism is based in the performance, including the music and costuming, it is allowed.

    Would you be shocked to see what posters write here about DomShabs or Davis and White or any other couple that did better than the poster thought they would have graded them? Those comments were far more scathing than anything that has been said here about Canadian dancers.

    DomShabs were particularly hauled over the coals for their OD last year. And they would have done well to listen to the posts and changed a few things between Russian Nationals and Olympics. The worst effect was that the performer and composer of the music of a significant part of the program refused to grant broadcast rights because she was offended by their performance. They had to scramble togehter some similar stuff to fit in the blank, which can't have been pleasant.

    I.P., I notice that your profile says you're Canadian. Would you explain why you feel yourself to be more critical of Canadian dancers?
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-02-2010 at 04:17 AM.

  11. #161
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    I don't feel I'm more critical of Canadian dancers in general. I've been VERY critical of Paul/Islam for two reasons. (a) I don't like it when a team so obviously apes another and (b) the hype. If you go read Ice Skating International, at World Juniors, the writer mentions Virtue/Moir twice in conjunction with them, and a lot of commentators (PJ Kwong, Tracy Wilson, Scott Russell, and I've heard people say Tanith Belbin) mentioning just how similar they are to the Canadian Champions. At the same time, I don't want criticisms to be read as Canada bashing. I've been no more critical of Paul/Islam than I have been of Ilynikh/Katsalpov because I think the hype/expectations were far more than they could reach. I look forward to the progress each is clearly capable of, but the skate gods can be cruel so I'm keeping expectations in check.

    That, and no one is Virtue and Moir.

    doris, I will say that what's been written here about Chan in the past far outstrips anything I've read about any ice dancer.

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I don't feel I'm more critical of Canadian dancers in general. I've been VERY critical of Paul/Islam for two reasons. (a) I don't like it when a team so obviously apes another and (b) the hype. If you go read Ice Skating International, at World Juniors, the writer mentions Virtue/Moir twice in conjunction with them, and a lot of commentators (PJ Kwong, Tracy Wilson, Scott Russell, and I've heard people say Tanith Belbin) mentioning just how similar they are to the Canadian Champions. At the same time, I don't want criticisms to be read as Canada bashing. I've been no more critical of Paul/Islam than I have been of Ilynikh/Katsalpov because I think the hype/expectations were far more than they could reach. I look forward to the progress each is clearly capable of, but the skate gods can be cruel so I'm keeping expectations in check.

    That, and no one is Virtue and Moir.

    doris, I will say that what's been written here about Chan in the past far outstrips anything I've read about any ice dancer.
    Well, I'm the first one to defend P/I, and I really don't think all of this V/M comparison stuff is fair, but can you really blame the commentators for bringing it up? I noticed the physical similarities when they were just standing at the boards. Other than the fact that P/I have the same nice carriage, good flow and presence that V/M have (which many other teams have as well), the comparison ends there for me. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

    There is one thing I don't get, though. Where was all of this V/M P/I comparison stuff last year when they were skating to fold music in their FD? Some people mentioned it, but it really wasn't this beig of an issue. Does this have more to do with this season's FD in particular, or just the team in general?
    Last edited by skatingfan04; 11-02-2010 at 09:25 AM.

  13. #163
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    That, and no one is Virtue and Moir.

    doris, I will say that what's been written here about Chan in the past far outstrips anything I've read about any ice dancer.
    Yes, I think that's true.

    However, Chan is unique. He is this century's Trixie Schuba or Elaine Zayak, beneficiary of unbalanced marks due to the vagaries of the current scoring system. In his case, he is apparently the best MITF guy there ever was (there is a nice thread on this in The Edge. Additionally, he has from time to time had an unfortunate interview style. It is a combination bound to cause comment.

    It is not because he is Canadian.

    Poor Trixie (an Austrian) was ridiculed to hell and back for being the best skater of compulsory figures that was ever seen. In the end, they got rid of the compulsories to get rid of a Trixie ever taking over the sport again. Likewise Elaine (American) for having the temerity to jump as well as she did-again was pilloried in the press and the Zayak rule was instituted.

    To quiet the criticism, the PCS components will have to be graded separately by the judges, or I can see a Chan rule coming, as surely as the coming of fall means I'm going to be putting up the storm windows.

    As to P/I being noticed more this year as Tessa/Scott body doubles, there are two reasons:
    1. Last year they were in juniors. Most fans don't follow the juniors.
    2. Last year Paul did not show up in what appeared to be Tessa's old Mahler dress (or a previous Tessa dress) so it wasn't as obvious. This is easily fixed. She should get a dress that looks like it belonged to Ingrid Bergman or her character in Casablanca, Elsa. Here's a picture for a guide (BTW, imo it would improve the overall program if she did that)

    http://www.cbpf.br/~klippert/images/Bogart4.jpg

    That would be a better look (minus the hat), if it could be successfully adapted for skating. At least a jacket/skirt/shirt or glamorous spy trench coat look could be done.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-02-2010 at 10:34 AM.

  14. #164
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    I'm not sure I agree, doris. PCS have been labeled "Perfectly Canadian Scores." - and it's not like Canadians are the sole beneficiaries of higher than merited scores. The level of vituperative hate thrown at Skate Canada (references to mafiosos, Canadians most corrupt etc) - completely irrational hate, of course - as you mention he benefits the most from the style. I don't recall this level of disgust hurled at other home skaters that got better scores then merited. And it is disgust, nothing less.

  15. #165
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Well, I generally hang out in the dance threads more than the other disciplines, but there was a spell when personal attacks on Meryl Davis were daily events. And the DomShabs got dinged for their OD as arrogant racists, and all inhabitants of Russian were also supposed to be arrogant racists.

    In the day of Anissina & Berezhnyah's Olympics, Russian mafiosa influence was listed as an absolute fact, including by Scott Hamilton. Russians have routinely been called most corrupt. Many accusations have been hurled at Piseev and his wife Alla.

    However, things do seem more heated at the Canadians than in previous years, so I think I agree with you there. But it doesn't seem any worse to me than against Russians in ice dance in the years when the Russians owned dance.

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