10-31-2010, 08:17 PM
North American dance teams look really strong. Think Crone & Poirer will make top 5 at Worlds this year. If V&M come back for the rest of the season, it will be a real battle for that third spot on the world team. Same for US with Samuelson & Bates likely out this season, there will be a battle for that third spot. We haven't seen the Hubbells yet - they dance next week in China. Kerrs are always fun and should medal at Euros. Faella & Scali yet to compete - they will be in China as well along with Pechalat & Bourzat, Hoffman & Zavozin and Bobrova/Soloviev. Should be quite competitive.
11-01-2010, 02:06 AM
Constable , Costume Police
Oh, I can't totally agree with the" P/I are too much like V/M thing ", even though I know where it's coming from, and a bit of that is going to be inevitable anyway. I too , have had reservations about her dress since back at Thornhill. But if you think about it ..their choreography is not like Z/S choreography and all they really need to do ( and should IMO) is just change her dress. Give her something a little more 40's and in a deeper pastel or jewel tone.
I can understand completely that they want to show off their lines first time out, and how better to do that than with a romantic program.I'll have to re-watch but I think the dance itself already has slightly earthier overtones than V/M...( well, their choreography is by D/L)
Last edited by colleen o'neill; 11-01-2010 at 02:09 AM.
11-01-2010, 02:19 AM
Wicked Yankee Girl
The other thing P/I should work on is their technique on their second set of twizzles. One or both of them does all three turns instead. The hopping was quite noticeable when I rewatched their FD on US this evening. If one of the pickier tech specialists picks up on it, that would, AFAIR, drop the twizzles to level 1, because the second set doesn't count.
It's odd that P/I do that, as D&L had the same flawed technique in one direction, but like flutzing in the same era, no one deducted for it.
These days, the tech specialists are grading closer to the rules.
BTW, re C&P's music, it definitely was my feed at fault. The dance looked much better on the big screen.
However, the costumes, not so much. I really like the red dress on Vanessa, but they should remove that furry sporran looking mass from the front of it. It just messes up her nice lines. I don't like the blue on Paul at all, but a similar simple costume in black would show off their positions just as well as blue, without the unfortunate effect of causing me to wonder whether a coach all in white was awaiting them in the KnC so they could all impersonate the French flag.
Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-01-2010 at 02:24 AM.
11-01-2010, 04:24 AM
On cloud nine and refusing to come down!
ImaginaryPogue, I'm a huge V/M fan like you but really we should cut P/I a little slack!! V/M didn't exactly have a choice for the OD in 06-07, the sole theme was tango IIRC. So far, we've seen many many odd tango-waltz hybrid SDs this season; they're not alone in this. Last season, all 3 top Canadian teams chose the flamenco for some reason too. If lyrical works for them, then so be it. As new seniors, they really need to start off on the right foot and do a programme that plays to their strengths. It's a lovely FD regardless, so good for them!
Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue
If V/M do plan on competing at Worlds, I imagine they'd get a bye through Nationals if need be. Competition is going to be intense at Canadian Nationals between C/P, P/I and W/P for the other 2 spots, with R/H possibly playing spoiler. I don't see Skate Canada not sending the reigning World and Olympic champions unless they opt to take a longer break.
11-01-2010, 08:57 AM
Wicked Yankee Girl
If V&M don't compete at Worlds, and P/I are on the World team (or if they are at 4CC's and V&M aren't there), it isn't a problem if they are deliberately channelling V&M. The problem would come if both teams are at the same competition and one looks like a pale copy of the other. At the very least, Paul should not be wearing what appears to be Virtue's old costume.
It's like when two girls go to the prom in the exact same gown. It doesn't work very well, but it's worse for the one who isn't as popular/as pretty/as skilled. It's worse when the less popular girl is wearing the popular girl's cast off last year's prom dress.
BTW, this was one of the problems when D&W and DomShabs were both doing Polovetsian Dances-but in that case it was the worse for DomShabs as well, because comparisons with the younger team were not all positive for DomShabs. DomShabs were less technical, but D&W had poorer extension and ownership of the ice.
Also, again solely IMO, I'm not crazy about ballet infiltrating ice dance that much. If you want to be an ice ballerina and do a pas de deux, the best place is in pairs to classical music. Ice Dance is also about timing, rhythm, and character of the music and the dance that is being portrayed. Ballet flourishes just get in the way of that, in most dances. Who wants to see a polka with ballet arms and wrists and hands and pointed toes? Who wants to see jazz done by a ballerina? The result is comic, as Rahkamo and Kokko perceived and took advantage of in their "Funny Ballerina" FD.
There are ballet-appropriate ice dances. If you are, as I&K are doing, "Don Quixote" with the ballet's music by Minkus, by all means that is super appropriate for ice dance. It is a legitimate style. But not a legitimate style for rock and roll, rap, jazz, folk, or swing, for example.
If you are trying to portray Bogart & Bergman in "Casablanca," you shouldn't be dancing and looking like Clara and the Nutcracker Prince going to a Halloween party dressed as Virtue and Moir, and dancing to the great comic Jimmy "The Schnozzola" Durante's version of "As Time Goes By."
Not if you want to be taken seriously.
Can anyone imagine Paul (although she really did try) being the recipient of Islam saying, "Here's looking at you kid?" It would work better if they were costumed closer to the movie. I hope to see them in different costumes by Canadians.
Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-01-2010 at 09:03 AM.
11-01-2010, 09:30 AM
My predictions: If V/M are at Nationals and Worlds, I think the 3 teams are going to be V/M, C/P, W/P, likely in that order, but it will be another horse race for second as both have their strengths and weaknesses, and both are hungry. If V/M take the season to get fully healthy, which I think is a great idea for them and Tessa especially, the 3 teams will likely be C/P, W/P fighting for gold and silver, and P/I in 3rd. I do not think that R/H will be anywhere near this level. We have 4 really strong teams. The 5th place spot will be a horse race between R/H, A/T, and H/G, and I'm not sure that R/H will have the strength to stay in the top 5 with A/T and H/G improving so much. A/T didn't get great marks here, but really they were severely under-marked, especially on the PCS scores in the FD, but also in the SD. They got absolutely killed on the levels in the SD, which is very unusual for them, and then the PCS scores. On the FD, they got most of their levels with decent GOE, but killed on the PCS, which I don't think was deserved. We'll have to see how R/H do in China this week, but I'm a little afraid for them.
11-01-2010, 09:39 AM
Despite some unfortunate withdrawals from injury, this season is turning out to be quite interesting. Crone & Poirer and Weaver & Poje both compete at Skate America and meet Davis & White and the Shibutanis along with Cappelllini & Lanotte and Riazaova & Trachenko. Expect Crone & Poirer to give Davis & White a headache if D&W haven't got their GW levels up and improved their FD. C&P look pretty polished this early in the season.
11-01-2010, 10:01 AM
Yet D/W at NHK way outscored C/P in both SD and FD, and D/W didn't have a home ice advantage---which they will have at SA.
Originally Posted by KKonas
Fact is D/W had to scrap their original SD and start over, so their FD was somewhat underprepared at NHK.
11-01-2010, 10:18 AM
So glad that C/P are working with Christopher Dean. The FD is a remarkable program -conceptually interesting, full of transitions and very demanding. Now let's see how they build the performance throughout the year.
11-01-2010, 10:48 AM
Wicked Yankee Girl
Arnold / Trojek, whom I assume you mean by A&T are not at the level of C&P or P&I or W&P yet, so I don't think we'll be seeing them at Worlds. Possibly at 4CC's though, if one of the other 3 opts not to go to 4CC's. Ralph and Hill are seriously on the bubble IMO, but I haven't seen them at all this summer, and have no idea how they will fit in. Again, with V&M out and a 3rd slot at World's, I expect they will have worked extra hard and will be well prepared.
Originally Posted by NorthernDancers
BTW, I don't agree that A&T were undermarked. That tree and wind concept required program notes, something that this year's rules is decidedly against, if that item passed at this summer's ISU meeting. If story lines are used, they are supposed to be obvious. Their marks were ahead of B&T and F&G, which was entirely correct, and well behind C&P, P&I, K&K, and C&Z also entirely correct. Are you suggesting they should have been ahead of C&J and or G&B in the FD? I certainly would not have put them there. If you check out the protocol, you will find that their final lift was graded a Level1, which account for an immediate loss of 2.5 points, versus other teams who did level4. They also chose the 4 little lift option rather than the one long lift and 2 little lifts option. This is apt not to impress, IMO, but since it's new it will be interesting to see how that choice works out for other teams that do it. Also they got level 2 on both steps when C&J and G&B got Level 2 and 3 and both Level 3's respectively. In general, deeper edges are called for.
As a result G&B had a base score of 39.50 while C&J had a base of 37.00, and A&T had a base of 34.50. Like the Kerrs, A&T finished low because of their technical score of 36.08 as much as anything, and that was due to low base value. G&B has a TES score of 41.85-so there was the difference.
In the SD, A&T only had Level1 & Level2 on the Golden Waltz. Frankly, they were lucky to be ahead of T&B in that segment. They were completely not on the level even of F&G who got Level 4 and Level 1 in the GW, Let alone the higher ranked couples who had all level3's and level4. In the SD, the GW levels make a huge difference. Level 4 on the first and Level 3 on the second nets you 13 base points. Level 1 on the first and level2 on the second nets only 8.5 base points. So no, they weren't particularly underscored here. Their tech was not as sharp as it was at Nebelhorn, would be my assumption; not a big surprise for a team at their GP debut.
11-01-2010, 11:36 AM
I really see the top 7 teams in Canada in 3 distinct quality categories:
- V/M who are in a class by themselves - 1st place
- W/P and C/P in any order with I/P below them, but not by miles and miles - 2nd, 3rd, 4th
- A/T, R/H and H/G in any order - 5th, 6th, 7th
It's really quite exciting to have such great depth in ice dance in Canada!
I see your point about needing program notes, but I do think A/T looked quite good in the FD. The SD is still hard for me to judge - especially the levels of the GW or the VW at Junior and being able to see the steps that constitute levels. I just know that A/T were scored very differently in Nebelhorn with some big teams there. Maybe nerves at a GP debut, and maybe coupled with a harsher standard since they would have been expected to be in the bottom 3? I think the finish order is right overall, all the way down from 1st through 9th. I just think the points for A/T should have been higher. I liked the floaty FD and thought they had really good connection with each other and presentation. Except for the lift at the end, they received good technical levels for the elements. As stated, I think the order was correct, but was there really 20 points between 6th and 7th? I'm not convinced.
11-01-2010, 01:15 PM
I thought the competition was great. P/I had the rink mesmerized and there were people with tears. C/P stood out with their look and the program was so good. It got faster and more powerful as it went on.
I'm not a big fan of the Kerrs myself. They never would have been paired up together if they weren't brother & sister. He must have lifts in his skates because when you see them together in shoes she is noticeably taller than him. They probably will do well at worlds though.
11-01-2010, 02:16 PM
"Hold an edge and look sexy!"
I only see Vanessa and Paul upsetting Meryl and Charlie if the latter make a few MAJOR mistakes.
Originally Posted by KKonas
11-01-2010, 03:16 PM
Constable , Costume Police
No, I don't see C/P being a threat to D/W in either dance. D/W's waltz should become more and more infectious as the season goes on with their ability to project..and they are no slouches , technically. even if it was a bit unfinished , I almost wanted to raise a glass and sing along at NHK.
C/P's unusual SD music demands the skaters be able to really draw the audience in. I don't say they couldn't do it , before the season is out..but (once again ) there will need to be a major costume make-over for that to have chance of happening. Her costume at SC really got in the way , for me.
Their FD really does elevate them to the point where they look like they belong in the upper echelons..but I don't see it surpassing D/W. ( Even if Charlie is not naturally a tango guy, I expect their program to be very polished.)
Last edited by colleen o'neill; 11-01-2010 at 03:19 PM.
11-01-2010, 03:26 PM
I like the overall concept and the simple lines of the costumes. However, those weird little touches- flowery/furry mass on Vanessa and the grid-like patterning of Paul's costume- did not work for me. In fact, if viewed from the side, the flowery/furry part of Vanessa's costume at first looked like an unfortunately placed anatomical allusion- even though I know it's not intended to be that way!
Originally Posted by dorispulaski
I do like the starkness of the lines and the vibrancy of the colors though. Vanessa looked much better with her hair and costume for the FD than she did for the SD.