Virtual Program and Preview Free Dance, Sunday, Oct 31, 12:15 EST | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Virtual Program and Preview Free Dance, Sunday, Oct 31, 12:15 EST

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I don't feel I'm more critical of Canadian dancers in general. I've been VERY critical of Paul/Islam for two reasons. (a) I don't like it when a team so obviously apes another and (b) the hype. If you go read Ice Skating International, at World Juniors, the writer mentions Virtue/Moir twice in conjunction with them, and a lot of commentators (PJ Kwong, Tracy Wilson, Scott Russell, and I've heard people say Tanith Belbin) mentioning just how similar they are to the Canadian Champions. At the same time, I don't want criticisms to be read as Canada bashing. I've been no more critical of Paul/Islam than I have been of Ilynikh/Katsalpov because I think the hype/expectations were far more than they could reach. I look forward to the progress each is clearly capable of, but the skate gods can be cruel so I'm keeping expectations in check.

That, and no one is Virtue and Moir.

doris, I will say that what's been written here about Chan in the past far outstrips anything I've read about any ice dancer.
 

skatingfan04

Final Flight
Joined
Sep 1, 2007
I don't feel I'm more critical of Canadian dancers in general. I've been VERY critical of Paul/Islam for two reasons. (a) I don't like it when a team so obviously apes another and (b) the hype. If you go read Ice Skating International, at World Juniors, the writer mentions Virtue/Moir twice in conjunction with them, and a lot of commentators (PJ Kwong, Tracy Wilson, Scott Russell, and I've heard people say Tanith Belbin) mentioning just how similar they are to the Canadian Champions. At the same time, I don't want criticisms to be read as Canada bashing. I've been no more critical of Paul/Islam than I have been of Ilynikh/Katsalpov because I think the hype/expectations were far more than they could reach. I look forward to the progress each is clearly capable of, but the skate gods can be cruel so I'm keeping expectations in check.

That, and no one is Virtue and Moir.

doris, I will say that what's been written here about Chan in the past far outstrips anything I've read about any ice dancer.

Well, I'm the first one to defend P/I, and I really don't think all of this V/M comparison stuff is fair, but can you really blame the commentators for bringing it up? I noticed the physical similarities when they were just standing at the boards. Other than the fact that P/I have the same nice carriage, good flow and presence that V/M have (which many other teams have as well), the comparison ends there for me. I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.:biggrin:

There is one thing I don't get, though. Where was all of this V/M P/I comparison stuff last year when they were skating to fold music in their FD? Some people mentioned it, but it really wasn't this beig of an issue. Does this have more to do with this season's FD in particular, or just the team in general?
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
That, and no one is Virtue and Moir.

doris, I will say that what's been written here about Chan in the past far outstrips anything I've read about any ice dancer.

Yes, I think that's true.

However, Chan is unique. He is this century's Trixie Schuba or Elaine Zayak, beneficiary of unbalanced marks due to the vagaries of the current scoring system. In his case, he is apparently the best MITF guy there ever was (there is a nice thread on this in The Edge. Additionally, he has from time to time had an unfortunate interview style. It is a combination bound to cause comment.

It is not because he is Canadian.

Poor Trixie (an Austrian) was ridiculed to hell and back for being the best skater of compulsory figures that was ever seen. In the end, they got rid of the compulsories to get rid of a Trixie ever taking over the sport again. Likewise Elaine (American) for having the temerity to jump as well as she did-again was pilloried in the press and the Zayak rule was instituted.

To quiet the criticism, the PCS components will have to be graded separately by the judges, or I can see a Chan rule coming, as surely as the coming of fall means I'm going to be putting up the storm windows.

As to P/I being noticed more this year as Tessa/Scott body doubles, there are two reasons:
1. Last year they were in juniors. Most fans don't follow the juniors.
2. Last year Paul did not show up in what appeared to be Tessa's old Mahler dress (or a previous Tessa dress) so it wasn't as obvious. This is easily fixed. She should get a dress that looks like it belonged to Ingrid Bergman or her character in Casablanca, Elsa. Here's a picture for a guide (BTW, imo it would improve the overall program if she did that)

http://www.cbpf.br/~klippert/images/Bogart4.jpg

That would be a better look (minus the hat), if it could be successfully adapted for skating. At least a jacket/skirt/shirt or glamorous spy trench coat look could be done.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I'm not sure I agree, doris. PCS have been labeled "Perfectly Canadian Scores." - and it's not like Canadians are the sole beneficiaries of higher than merited scores. The level of vituperative hate thrown at Skate Canada (references to mafiosos, Canadians most corrupt etc) - completely irrational hate, of course - as you mention he benefits the most from the style. I don't recall this level of disgust hurled at other home skaters that got better scores then merited. And it is disgust, nothing less.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Well, I generally hang out in the dance threads more than the other disciplines, but there was a spell when personal attacks on Meryl Davis were daily events. And the DomShabs got dinged for their OD as arrogant racists, and all inhabitants of Russian were also supposed to be arrogant racists.

In the day of Anissina & Berezhnyah's Olympics, Russian mafiosa influence was listed as an absolute fact, including by Scott Hamilton. Russians have routinely been called most corrupt. Many accusations have been hurled at Piseev and his wife Alla.

However, things do seem more heated at the Canadians than in previous years, so I think I agree with you there. But it doesn't seem any worse to me than against Russians in ice dance in the years when the Russians owned dance.
 

backoutsideedge

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 28, 2004
Yeah, but Browning could pull it off. Islam didn't. I saw it and said to my computer monitor "You're not Kurt Browning, take your hands out. It doesn't work and makes you look silly."

The thing is despite the effortlessness of their lifts, it reads as trying too hard. Their FD at juniors had issues definitely, but they looked like they could have their own identity. Three of four programs (OD last season, SD and FD here) are just too much like V/M. And as a V/M fanbot, no no no no no.

That score is high but probably fair. I just wanted it to be lower.


Wow, why such animosity and hostility towards this young and very talented team? Do you really think they knew in the spring/summer of '09 when they were putting their programs together that V&M were aso doing a flamenco OD? Um, NO. They can't help the fact that they both look like V&M in physical appearance.

Also, Alex Paul has extensive ballet training so of course there's going to be a resemblance to VIrtue in that way. To me, P&I are already doing harder programs/transitions etc than V&M did when they first burst onto the senior scene with Valse Triste.

I also don't get why you're comparing P&I to Browning. Browning is a singles skater skating skating to Casa --- P&I are ice dancers. Are you saying that Browning is the only skater who should ever skate to Casa?

Anyway, P&I are very talented and I look forward to watching them in the years to come.
 
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backoutsideedge

Rinkside
Joined
Mar 28, 2004
To Dorispulaski,
I disagree with you re: P&I's second set of twizzles. I watched both their programs and watched the twizzles in slo-mo and do not think they are doing three-turns. Do you know what three-turns are? P&I are on the flats of their blades doing their twizzles, if they were doing three-turns, they would have been on inside or outside edges.

I also disagree that Paul should be dressed the same way as Elsa in the movie. A costume like that would look frumpy and fuddy-duddy - Paul is an 18 year old girl. She needs something age approriate and something that is soft and flowing and pretty - to suit her and their program. I would like to see her in a different colour for the FD rather than that pale blue but NOT something like Elsa.

In any case, I really think this team is going places. I expect them to challege W&P at Nationals.

As for the V&M and P&I comparisons if both teams go to worlds - it will help that V&M are doing a Latin FD. ;)
 
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colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:) Well I've been wanting to say , Pogue, don't be too bummed.I know you were interested to see the progress of this couple. Don't let a bad decision on the part of their team spoil it for you. I agree they made a bad choice with the costumes.( BTW, I'm also in favour of all skaters keeping their hands out of their pockets..including Kurt back in the day..but that's another story. )..No-one can fail to compare Alexandra to Tessa..there's the ballet training ...and to top it off, I don't know about height, but they are very similarly proportioned, so it's just over-kill to resort to evoking V/M with the costumes.

I differ a bit with doris in that I think that such an obvious comparison will backfire on them anyway, even if V/M don't return this season. If this is a strategy ( which I now think it is, since they didn't change costumes after Thornhill ) , it does them no favours , because it's too easy for those not favourably inclined to write them off as wanna-bes. Their very considerable accomplishments and promise deserve to be recognized. Their team doesn't need to invite the possibility of the couple being written off as just a pale imitation.

For their FD , I don't think they need to tell the story of the movie, either. The song is now a standard and it doesn't require that the skaters try to portray Bergman and Bogart. I would like them to stay true to the era , but any 40's themed costumes would do..( Even this is not absolutely necessary.."Moonlight and love songs ; never out of date.") ... I would like to see Technicolor , though.. not B&W. This girl dresses up so well. Just let her shine.

I'm not as worried about Mitch's costume since there are fewer options for men, and I actually don't feel he's very much like Scott. Scott has a natural focus and intensity that would be very hard to match and Mitch is a different physical type.

My last word of hope is that I don't get an "inflexible" vibe from David Islam's team. I hope it's not just wishful thinking on my part , but there may be more willingness to react to any negative feedback than with some coaching teams. ( We can't be the only ones who think they've taken a step too far.) ..Keeping my fingers crossed.
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, I do know what a 3 turn is. I am one of the perhaps 4 people in the world who actually enjoyed doing school figures and compulsory dances back in the day.

I agree that they are a very talented team.

My hope is that the costume choice doesn't backfire on them. If they don't want to do Elsa, then they of course do not have to. I do not expect them to take my advice, since they did not pay for it. But I agree with colleen that it wouldn't be my choice for them.

I still think using Jimmy "the great Schnozzola" Durante is a funny choice for the vocals, BtW.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
However, things do seem more heated at the Canadians than in previous years, so I think I agree with you there. But it doesn't seem any worse to me than against Russians in ice dance in the years when the Russians owned dance.

More specifically, I blame COP. Canadian skaters/Skate Canada are pretty closely linked to COP. Firstly, the SLC debacle as the final straw (Cinquata has mentioned that there was the groundwork in place for COP post-Nagano due to the ice dance controversy, and I believe that to be true). Nextly, my understanding was the the second in command at ISU (David Dore, a Canadian) was integral in getting COP implemented. Thirdly, the "quirks" in COP that allowed for Canadian medalists where they might not have medalled (Sandhu winning that GPF thanks to Plushenko's illegal jump/combo; Buttle winning bronze with a fall on a rotated quad), and of course, Buttle winning worlds, setting off that raging debate about quads.

Wow, why such animosity and hostility towards this young and very talented team? Do you really think they knew in the spring/summer of '09 when they were putting their programs together that V&M were aso doing a flamenco OD? Um, NO. They can't help the fact that they both look like V&M in physical appearance.

Also, Alex Paul has extensive ballet training so of course there's going to be a resemblance to VIrtue in that way. To me, P&I are already doing harder programs/transitions etc than V&M did when they first burst onto the senior scene with Valse Triste.

I also don't get why you're comparing P&I to Browning. Browning is a singles skater skating skating to Casa --- P&I are ice dancers. Are you saying that Browning is the only skater who should ever skate to Casa?

Anyway, P&I are very talented and I look forward to watching them in the years to come.

1. You're absolutely correct, they couldn't have known about the flamenco. However, they do know two things (a) That they resemble, physically and in style Virtue and Moir and (b) that any comparison doesn't work in their favour. To me, any junior team graduating to seniors should do their utmost to differentiate themselves. They haven't. That disappoints me.

2. sigh. If you're gonna skate to music others have skated to before, I get to compare you. If you play Hamlet, I'm gonna compare you to other Hamlets I've seen. If you write a vampire novel, I'm gonna compare you to The Passage (no, not Twilight. I will not be reading that without the threat of bodily harm). I'm not one that instantly complains about the warhorses. But if you're gonna skate to Carmen.... you know the drill. The reason I'm comparing them to Kurt Browning? Because they elected to skate to music from/inspired by Casablance. Browning absolutely nailed the character of the piece and did so with a beautifully choreographed program. They didn't and his affectations bugged me. I don't like hands-in-the-pockets in life unless it's winter, though.

:) Well I've been wanting to say , Pogue, don't be too bummed.I know you were interested to see the progress of this couple. Don't let a bad decision on the part of their team spoil it for you. I agree they made a bad choice with the costumes.( BTW, I'm also in favour of all skaters keeping their hands out of their pockets..including Kurt back in the day..but that's another story. )..No-one can fail to compare Alexandra to Tessa..there's the ballet training ...and to top it off, I don't know about height, but they are very similarly proportioned, so it's just over-kill to resort to evoking V/M with the costumes.

I differ a bit with doris in that I think that such an obvious comparison will backfire on them anyway, even if V/M don't return this season. If this is a strategy ( which I now think it is, since they didn't change costumes after Thornhill ) , it does them no favours , because it's too easy for those not favourably inclined to write them off as wanna-bes. Their very considerable accomplishments and promise deserve to be recognized. Their team doesn't need to invite the possibility of the couple being written off as just a pale imitation.

Heh. My original comment wasn't that dismissive, was it? I complimented their lifts and that "they sold it." While I might take the latter back now (also having rewatch C/P's program repeatedly. That's a stunner), I didn't mean to be so down. colleen's right. Their silver medal at world Juniors startled me, and they were really rough around the edges then. Watching them at Thornhill... I was blown away by just how much they improved. Here are my exact words actually

Paul/Islam have improved quite a bit since junior worlds. Wasn't expecting that for some reason, but given their steep learning curve, I should have. A piece of her costume fell off (looked like a hair bun thingamajig - I'm a black man with a very close shave, I don't know these things). They scored 53.16, and they had an error on the twizzle as well (she came off early). But they are much smoother and more refined than last season. Sorta stunned, actually.

So, give them credit. They had a rocket of a debut. They've improved and will continue to do so. The depth of North American ice dance is so wonderful and watching the young Canadian and American teams progress and improve shall be a wonderful thing for this quadrennial.
 
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