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Thread: Men - Short Program

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I see no need to cater to a bunch of mostly heterosexist sportswriters who will not bother with this sport whatsoever even when the result is determined using a clock. In fact, I am pleased they don't trivialize our sport to the same level as one that openly cheers fist fights on ice which of course makes juicy stories for these writers. If that is deemed a "real sport", be my guest. Don't believe me? Then please name a woman who can be accepted as a commentator on any of such "real / money making professional sport".


    Thankfully, the status and prestige of this sport is not dependent on the opinion of such narrow minded people. In fact, IOC is about to approve a team based event for 2014 Olympics whereas some of these "real sport" is not even in the Olympics.
    These sportswriters cover more than figure skating - Christine Brennan *USA Today, Vicki Michaelis *USA Today, Helene Elliott *LA Times, Diane Pucin *LA Times, Bev Smith *Globe & Mail, Nancy Armour *AP , Jo Ann Barnas *Detroit Free Press to name just a few..

  2. #302
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Well, at least we show consistency. The women were relatively clean, but one man had such an awful skate and unearned scores that the men have 20 pages of posts vs 9 for the ladies. Such is the power of the Chan.


    Yes, after watching Chan's stylish skating it got me curious to look in on some of the Dance last night.

    I liked it - I always like it - even though I don't always watch it.
    Such is the power of Chan that I hope to watch the Dance final tomorrow.

  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post


    Yes, after watching Chan's stylish skating it got me curious to look in on some of the Dance last night.

    I liked it - I always like it - even though I don't always watch it.
    Such is the power of Chan that I hope to watch the Dance final tomorrow.
    These are my 2 favorite events for a LONG TIME, men and ice dance. And I am watching this sport for about...40 y. The ladies are depressing me, when i see so many poor techincal programs, splatfaest being an appropiate word. never understood what the fans are able to write and debate so much about it. Very few ladies are rising up to the occassion usually. But in men skating, they are bringing nthe goods more times than not and the field is usually deep in every event. And dance whad alwaysa special place in my heart, as I love watching dancing on the floor and on the ice.

  4. #304
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    "That shows the importance of [good] practices," he said. "The judges know I can do the program. It shows they want me to do well. That's good to know; it definitely cheered me up a little bit."
    That's my boy!

    "That shows the importance of [good] practices."
    But Patrick, even Joubert and Plushenko -- those no transitions, no choreography nonenties -- have had some good practices.

    The judges know I can do the program."
    But you didn't.

    "It shows they want me to do well."
    But you didn't.

    "That's good to know; it definitely cheered me up a little bit."
    I think you were misquoted here, Pat. I think what you actually said was, "I have a lot of hard work before me. My goal this season is to deliver clean programs."

    That way you can cheer yourself up, and you don't have to depend on being cheered up by the judges.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    ...
    Part of the reason why people stopped risking Quads was because of (A.) how much the Double Axel was worth in comparison to the Quad, and (B.) How overpenalized downgrades used to be. If you did a Quad, but underrotated it, you used to get less points than if you had done an easy 2Axel. A top skater could easily get 4.5+ points from a Double Axel whereas an underrotated Quad, a move which takes FAR more energy and places FAR more stress on the skater going into their performance, would only get 4 points at most (and likely a lot less given that other errors on the landing are more frequent for a Quad).

    Even if you did land the Quad, fully rotated and cleanly, it wouldn't necessarily help you. Doing a Quad takes more energy and forces your mind to focus on that different technique, which can make the rest of the jumps in your program more difficult. Doing a good Double Axel out of a transition easily got you 4.5+ points, allowed you to focus more energy on other jumps in the program so that they get better +GOE and are more consistent, and also meant there was extra incentive to make a case for your Transitions program component.

    The new rules have fixed the problem of how underrotations are scored and also increased the point difference between the Quad and easier jumps. However, the new rules have also been changed such that MESSY jumps are penalized less. This is a big problem because the penalties for mistakes were already too lenient in many cases! So now we will see people falling on Quads and receiving more points for that jump than if they had done a good Triple Flip.

    Now, back to your post, Patrick didn't just fall on a Quad. If that had been his only mistake and he had skated the rest of the program up to his full potential, then I probably would have put him ahead of Adam Rippon. That wasn't his only mistake, though. He fell on his Triple Axel (a tilted, barely rotated attempt), which really sucked the life out of the program. And then when he was starting to get it back on the footwork sequence, he fell again and the performance was left with an extremely unsavory aftertaste.
    Quote Originally Posted by hikki View Post
    ...That said, I'm surprised to see the high scores, especially TES. So I compared this to another skater who seems to be considered A+ class in skating, (hence overscoring argument at times).

    • Takahashi's TES at NHK = 36.83 with 3f(e)-3t, 3axel (messy landing), 3lz.

    • Chan's TES at SC = 36.73 with 4 (fall), 3axel (fall), 3f-3t.


    1) Quad SP vs. no quad SP
    • Takahashi's Total jump base points = 6 (3f) + 4.1(3t)+8.5(3ax)+6.0(3lz)=24.6

    • Chan's Total jump base points = 10.3(4t) + 8.5(3ax)+ 6(3f)+ 4.1(3t)=28.9



    So Chan has 4.3 points lead over Takahashi with the harder jump contents.

    2) Quad SP with three falls vs. clean no quad SPJust taking Chan's 3 falls into account,
    28.9 - 3 (automatic penalty) - 3 (mandatory ? -3 GOE deduction for quad)- 3 (mandatory ? -3 GOE deduction for axel) = 19.9

    • So very roughly calculated, Quad SP with three falls is 4.7 points behind a clean non quad SP (19.9-24.6=-4.7)

    > So a point one could argue is whether the system here is acceptable or not.

    3) Now factor in the fact Takahashi had an edge call and a messed up landing on the 3axel
    Takahashi received - 1.91 GEO deduction for the 'two mistakes.'

    • With all other things equal, Takahashi one edge call and a messed up landing wuld be worth 2.79 points higher than Chan's quad with 3 falls (4.7 -1.91 = 2.79)

    • In reality Takahashi was (only) 0.1 points higher.

    • So Chan must have received 2.78 points worth higher GOEs and level calls in non-jump elements.


    > Another point of argument here is whether that's justified or not.

    Obviously we're not supposed to compare different competitions, but I think this puts some more 'rational' to the overscored or not argument.

    Now why am I doing this when I'm supposed to be working hard for my deadline...
    Quote Originally Posted by MikiAndoFan#1 View Post
    None. PCS have nothing to do with falls or pops.
    I found these to be very insightful posts - thanks! Again, I really think the quality of chan's skating is astonishingly good; but I don't like that three falls in a short program - no matter how great the rest is, can be correctly added up to a score in contention of the podium. I agree with another poster whose post I cannot find that that feeling is probably a left over from the 6.0 system. So guilty as charged. but i think blades of passion has pointed to a probelm in the scoring system itself - one that was rightly corrected, another that remains to be debated if not fixed.

  6. #306
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    I often hear CoP fans say that 6.0 was bad because if you had a poor SP you were all but eliminated from the podium.

    Hope many will enjoy Patrick's medal at this event - which never would have happened under 6.0.
    Too much fuss is being made over a few mistakes. This scoring system rewards differently than 6.0 where three mistakes in the technical program would eliminate a skater from the podium.

    It's about points - there is no technical program and freeskate anymore. There are two programs with one being longer than the other.

    Look for Patrick to battle it out with Oda tonight for the Gold with Rippon for the bronze.
    It's about the points - and it doesn't matter how you get them.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-30-2010 at 10:09 AM.

  7. #307
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    [QUOTE=janetfan;524031....It's about the points - and it doesn't matter how you get them.[/QUOTE]

    It matters if the judges hold someone up. I am waiting to see the protocols, but the classic statement is that you should not get rewarded for what you have done in the past, but rather for what you do on that particular day when you compete. Otherwise, it's just points for reputation, and CoP was supposed to do away with that. The PCS given Patrick, therefore, already disturbs me. Canada was the participant that kept demanding fairness in the judging; that is what brought about CoP in the first place.

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Look for Patrick to battle it out with Oda tonight for the Gold with Rippon for the bronze.
    Sure! It's intertaining!

    I Can't blame Skate Canada at all. Sorry, but the judges (not Canadians) love to kiss SC's feet. What can you do?

    Even Chan's defenders have felt some degree of unjustice here. I don't see it goes on like this forever. I'm wondering if CoP or the judges are pushing the envelope which could trigger further changes soon.

  9. #309
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    I'm speechless. (Haven't had chance to watch any skaters other than Chan) Why don't we rename men's figure skating as men's ice dance?
    don't take out your frustration on ice dance. we didn't see any of them fall three times and land in medal contention.

  10. #310
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    So isn't this like admitting you are being scored based on reputation?
    Yes, and it's another reason why I'm not a fan. I can't stand his HUGE ego and the constant self-aggrandizing. Chan seriously needs to learn the virtues of silence and humility, but I don't see that happening too soon.

  11. #311
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodhiyel View Post
    It matters if the judges hold someone up. I am waiting to see the protocols, but the classic statement is that you should not get rewarded for what you have done in the past, but rather for what you do on that particular day when you compete. Otherwise, it's just points for reputation, and CoP was supposed to do away with that. The PCS given Patrick, therefore, already disturbs me. Canada was the participant that kept demanding fairness in the judging; that is what brought about CoP in the first place.
    Well if the judging panel was made up entirely of Canadians you would have a good point.
    Looking at Patrick's score - which is more than respectable - it appears most of the judges decided he was pretty good.

    If he lands most of his jumps tonight he will probably win - unless Oda drops one of his 4x3x3's that we have been seeing in practice.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by chloepoco View Post
    Despite the falls, the judges kept Chan in the hunt for a medal with high program component scores, ranging up to 9.25 for skating skills.

    "That shows the importance of [good] practices," he said. "The judges know I can do the program. It shows they want me to do well. That's good to know; it definitely cheered me up a little bit."

    So isn't this like admitting you are being scored based on reputation?
    And apparently Chan doesn't see anything wrong with that. And knowing that, he doesn't really have the motivation to do better, since he will be judged the same way whether he delivers or not.

  13. #313
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    If he lands most of his jumps tonight he will probably win - unless Oda drops one of his 4x3x3's that we have been seeing in practice.
    Sadly, I can see the totally unfair scenario happening tonight that if Chan and Oda are both clean, Patrick will still come out on top despite his SP blowout. I know it's a total longshot that Pat would ever skate a clean LP though, as that hasn't happened since the 2008 Canadians I believe.

  14. #314
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    It won't matter if Chan isn't clean and Oda is---Chan will probably win anyway, if the judges boost the PCS high enough.

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Yes, and it's another reason why I'm not a fan. I can't stand his HUGE ego and the constant self-aggrandizing. Chan seriously needs to learn the virtues of silence and humility, but I don't see that happening too soon.
    I know. I do not like Chan the person. His skills really are beautiful but that man needs to humbled stat.

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