Men - Short Program

**Hikaru** · 10-30-2010, 01:12 AM

Originally Posted by Joesitz

Other than the automatic deductions in the Tech, we do not know whether judges consider Falls as poor performance. But if a ballerina falls in Swan Lake and I've seen it happen, the performance is not good and the audience lets her know it, and that is not even a competition. It's obvious too in skating - poor performance.

I agree with you Joe, for me Skating Skills, Performance/execution has to somehow be connected to the elements the skater performs. Once skater may have good skating skills, but if he fails in the jumps or a spin or whatever, he is not showing great skating skills at that moment (I understand skating skills as the proper use of the blades and edges, the proper technique for doing the elements that comforms figure skating). Which is why I don't understand how any skater making pretty obvious errors in the execution of elements can still get a high score on skating skills. To us a more concrete example, I think for instance that Mao has overall good skating skills, but she didn't show them in her programs at NHK, so while in general she has good SS, at that time, at that competition she didn't execute them as well, and the score for that category should reflect what is seen in the ice.

In this case, while Chan may have showed great skills while executing a footwork sequence, the SS score should be for the overall performance through out the program. I can't imagine the score being higher when there have been clear errors.

**FTnoona** · 10-30-2010, 01:32 AM

Originally Posted by mishieru07

People need to look at the rulebook; the ISU has definite criteria on what falls under the various categories for PCS. I'm not sure whether skating skills involves whether jumps are successfully landed, that should be under the TES and maybe PE if the falls distract from the programme.

I think it's tempting to think that just because a skater falls, he/she doesn't deserve a good score because that is what would have happened under 6.0. The new system doesn't quite work that way! (Although I tend to feel that PCS are being abused just like the Artistic Impression mark was but that's another story)

I know that isn't how the new rules are :(
I'm just saying that that is my view on how the rules should be. I know that jumps and how they are executed belong in the TES. I just think that some of the technique of the jumps should be involved/linked with skating skills. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough.

**mishieru07** · 10-30-2010, 01:37 AM

Originally Posted by FTnoona

I know that isn't how the new rules are :(
I'm just saying that that is my view on how the rules should be. I know that jumps and how they are executed belong in the TES. Sorry if I didn't make it clear enough.

Well I definitely agree with you that the rules need changes! I don't quibble much with TES but PCS is really very reputation-centric IMO. But alas, I fear Speedy and co don't care about the sport.

**Tonichelle** · 10-30-2010, 01:42 AM

Originally Posted by gottadance

I think the issue of the marks has been well covered - my question is why cant Patrick Chan stay upright - when was the last time he did a totally clean perofrmace? He is an outstanding skater and athlete but even his 2 world silver medals included flaws in his performance especially last years worlds. His great SS , spins and FW sequences keep him " up there " for sure , but why cant he land the jumps in the first place - is it a focus issue , a tecnical issue a nerves issue or what? I really love his skating but the constant falls or over rotations or step outs give me ulcers ? Can on eof you tecnical experts enlighten me ?

mainly because he doesn't seem to need to, so he doesn't seem to work on fixing his axel technique for one. He's taking the Buttle approach to teh quad (rotate it and land on my butt, take the one point deduction and still get full credit). The fall on footwork was his only mistake out of the norm. That we can chalk up to it being the beginning of the season. hence his high score. He's the men's version of Alissa Czisny. Only less polite to his competition in the press conferences

**rocketry** · 10-30-2010, 02:15 AM

Originally Posted by Tonichelle

mainly because he doesn't seem to need to, so he doesn't seem to work on fixing his axel technique for one. He's taking the Buttle approach to teh quad (rotate it and land on my butt, take the one point deduction and still get full credit). The fall on footwork was his only mistake out of the norm. That we can chalk up to it being the beginning of the season. hence his high score. He's the men's version of Alissa Czisny. Only less polite to his competition in the press conferences

Why do you think that he isn't serious about landing the quad? He claims it's one of his more dependable jumps and he claims to land it 4/5 times. It could be talk, but he reportedly did several in practice. I thought it looked gorgeous at Liberty. He also landed all of his triple axels cleanly at Worlds, didn't he? It's an inconsistent element, but I haven't seen anything to make me believe he's blowing it off because he can...

**bekalc** · 10-30-2010, 02:15 AM

My issue with Chan is that he has these jammed packed choregraphed programs, but he NEVER skates clean. Sometimes in the short but never in the long. And we hear all the time that he deserves to get these high marks even though he's never clean because of his choregraphy.

This is my issue. Maybe the reason Chan is never clean because the reality of the situation is that Patrick cannot handle his difficulty choregraphy and landing the jumps in the long program both. While I DO like choregraphy and transitions, I don't think Skaters should be encouraged to pack in the choregraphy to the point where they are given complete mess of programs. And then get rewarded for it. Its ridiculous.

Don't get me wrong, I can deal with a small minor mistake. Like the small minor mistake Anton had at the Salt Lake Olympics. But I can't handle a skater falling 3/4 times, and getting rewarded for it. There must be a balance in this system. Where EXECUTION and the actual performance matters. Otherwise why even bother to have a freaking competition.

**lavender** · 10-30-2010, 02:26 AM

I enjoy Chan's skating (not Chan the actual person) and if he skates clean it should reflect his scores but dude should be like in 7th place or something. He has such wonderful skating skills but I think this sport looks ridiculous putting that skate that high.

**hikki** · 10-30-2010, 02:40 AM

Originally Posted by skatinginbc

I might be in the minority, but when I watched Patrick's 3-fall skating, I noticed a significant improvement in his presentation, reaching out more to the audience. What I said to myself was Wow, what a skate if without the falls. The scoring system might be flawed, but I doubt if the judges or the skater himself were at fault with respect to the "over-score".

I have to agree. His presentation, namely upper body movements and the 'reaching out' factor you mentioned, was very noticeable in this program. And can he skate on those deep edges or what?!

That said, I'm surprised to see the high scores, especially TES. So I compared this to another skater who seems to be considered A+ class in skating, (hence overscoring argument at times).

Takahashi's TES at NHK = 36.83 with 3f(e)-3t, 3axel (messy landing), 3lz.

Chan's TES at SC = 36.73 with 4 (fall), 3axel (fall), 3f-3t.

1) Quad SP vs. no quad SP

Takahashi's Total jump base points = 6 (3f) + 4.1(3t)+8.5(3ax)+6.0(3lz)=24.6

Chan's Total jump base points = 10.3(4t) + 8.5(3ax)+ 6(3f)+ 4.1(3t)=28.9

So Chan has 4.3 points lead over Takahashi with the harder jump contents.

2) Quad SP with three falls vs. clean no quad SPJust taking Chan's 3 falls into account,
28.9 - 3 (automatic penalty) - 3 (mandatory ? -3 GOE deduction for quad)- 3 (mandatory ? -3 GOE deduction for axel) = 19.9

So very roughly calculated, Quad SP with three falls is 4.7 points behind a clean non quad SP (19.9-24.6=-4.7)

> So a point one could argue is whether the system here is acceptable or not.

3) Now factor in the fact Takahashi had an edge call and a messed up landing on the 3axel
Takahashi received - 1.91 GEO deduction for the 'two mistakes.'

With all other things equal, Takahashi one edge call and a messed up landing wuld be worth 2.79 points higher than Chan's quad with 3 falls (4.7 -1.91 = 2.79)

In reality Takahashi was (only) 0.1 points higher.

So Chan must have received 2.78 points worth higher GOEs and level calls in non-jump elements.

> Another point of argument here is whether that's justified or not.

Obviously we're not supposed to compare different competitions, but I think this puts some more 'rational' to the overscored or not argument.

Now why am I doing this when I'm supposed to be working hard for my deadline...

**Artistry** · 10-30-2010, 02:58 AM

Very good analysis there in the last thread. This "mathematical" precision system is in fact, in actuality as opposed to theory - a total mess.

**Bluebonnet** · 10-30-2010, 03:33 AM

I'm speechless. (Haven't had chance to watch any skaters other than Chan) Why don't we rename men's figure skating as men's ice dance?

**yangjie** · 10-30-2010, 03:54 AM

i just want to say that patrick cant beat Takahashi without any quads.
if takahashi keeps landing quads, Patrick would need it too.

**seniorita** · 10-30-2010, 03:57 AM

Chan has amazing skills, the best edges and speed and ultra duper flow but his jumps are little small even landed and his spins adequate, plus for now he shows very little emotion and doesn't show the charisma even lets see...Amodio with a crap program had, why is he considered the alpha and omega when he has really flaws, if he skates once in a year a clean program we make a party...

On another note, Fernandez with the cartoon program scored really low, I dont remember how he was scored last year but I rewatched it now and he was fun!

**Blades of Passion** · 10-30-2010, 06:14 AM

For me Fernandez is not all that. Well, he's very good looking. But in terms of presentation, he's basically just Amodio without the same amount of soul. A bit less technical prowess as well.

He still deserved to place above Chan in this SP, though.