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Thread: Men - Free program

  1. #331
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Regardless, it's not at all impossible that most of the judges were simply WRONG either. The bottom line is that Patrick Chan was overscored. It happens all the name to people who are "anointed". Suddenly everything they do becomes seen as better than the things "lesser" skaters do, even though that is often not the case.

    The anointing of Patrick Chan + the politics of Skate Canada + the awful judging system + the poor judging all came together to create the drastically overinflated scores he received. Nobody is arguing he didn't deserved to win the LP, but that doesn't mean he wasn't overscored. ESPECIALLY in the Short Program.
    Agreed. I think this kind of blatant misjudging is probably more common at lesser competitions, namely ones leading up to GPF. I recall at last seasons' competitions, there was similar controversy in the overscoring---namely of Joannie Rochette. Bottom line is: judges will bend the rules to have their top skaters eligible for GPF. But I think the judging becomes fairer as the season progresses and at the major competitions---like the GPF or Worlds. So I'd expect this kind of poor judging to be exclusive to this competition only and not indicative of how the season will go.

  2. #332
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Partick’s score in the FS is arguable because it could probably go both ways. However, I think his scores in SP was ridiculous. He received the highest PCS of about 39 points ---3 points higher than Adam and 1 point higher than Nobu’s flawless SPs despite 3 obvious falls that affected his performance. Some common sense should have been used when applying the skating rules…3 falls should not result in a top score and should have been deducted in the PCS at least...the mistakes were not adequately reflected in the scores. There are ways to prop up a skater and that’s at least partly of what was happening here---making sure that he wasn’t totally out of the competition so that he was still in medal position before FS to ensure his placement in the GPF.
    Remnants of 6.0 thinking - the saving of someone's reputation despite the performance. That's what the IJS was supposed to stop. Clearly these rule changes initiated unintended consequences with a result that copies a similar situation for a popular skater skating in his own country. Oda, Reynolds, and Rippon were probably and understandably dispirited knowing that going into their FS it would be near impossible to beat Chan after his scores. Chan did skate well in the FS, but should never have been so close to the other leaders in points after the SP he performed. That's why this situation is so wrong. It's discouraging to the rest of the competitors.

  3. #333
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    They won't be "penalized badly", they will be penalized FAIRLY. A fall on a rotated Quad should be worth the same as a good Double Axel, but not several points more (a fall on an underrotated Quad should still garner some points too...up until this season it didn't). Making a fall on a Quad worth way more than an easier, cleanly landed jump is bad because it promotes messy programs with Quads exclusively over excellent programs without Quads.
    I doubt that would be a good measure. Girls can do double Axel well and land it beautifully, evan with difficult entry. How many of them can rotate 4 times in the air?

  4. #334
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    ^ Still, rotating four times in the air then falling on your backside is not particularly praiseworthy.

  5. #335
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Still, rotating four times in the air then falling on your backside is not particularly praiseworthy.
    I guess you can demonstrate to us how you rotate 4 times in the air then since you make it sound so easy.

  6. #336
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ever View Post
    Do anyone think PChan could get this kind of points from COR? Let's see.
    Maybe justice will finally be served and he will place 6th there, thus failing to make the Grand Prix Final . . . I can hope.

  7. #337
    L'art pour l'art Medusa's Avatar
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    I think Patrick deserved the win. He might have been a bit overscored here and there, but it doesn't really rock my world. He clearly was the best skater out there yesterday - compared to Oda (I already forgot all about the program except for the beautiful first 3A) and Rippon (quite slow, average skating skills, average jumping technique, boring programs -- I still like him, but he is currently travelling to a country that I don't want to visit: very bland, very tame, very boring).

    And the short program - they could have given Patrick less, but what's with the outrage? It's not like they handed Patrick a World Title and an Olympic Title, they just gave him the win of a tiny GP-event. Two years ago lots of people were raging against SkateCanada and Chan's marks too, including me - but that worked out alright, the judges didn't go on to hand him everything like some (including me) predicted.

    I hope he wins Russia and has a good GPF for the first time in his career. He still has room to improve, which is good - you don't want to start the season in top-form.

  8. #338
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    Quote Originally Posted by hongligl View Post
    I doubt that would be a good measure. Girls can do double Axel well and land it beautifully, evan with difficult entry. How many of them can rotate 4 times in the air?
    Just 1. And IIRC, she hasn't had it ratified for years.

    I can see where BoP and Mathman are coming from, but I stand by my view. The risks of doing a quad are so high and if the possible points one could lose from falling/ under-rotating it as opposed to landing a nice 3Lz with difficult entry and good GoE are considerable, then it would be smart to go for a safer layout, unless the skater in question happens to be a gifted jumper like Reynolds or Plushenko. We need to reward people sufficiently for attempting quads and triple axels. Up to this season, many ladies did 3 2A. Why? Because the points awarded for attempting triples weren't all that much higher, especially the 3T. No point attempting to land one for the few points that you could possibly gain and risk getting URs, a fall, or negative GoE. Everything boils down to cost-benefit analysis.

    I think the rest of the IJS system sufficiently emphasizes that a skater must be all-rounded; Chan for one certainly benefits from it. At any rate, landing quads, successfully or otherwise, doesn't necessarily mean a skater would win. Just ask Kevin van de Perren or even Plushenko.

  9. #339
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    "The other side of the World."

    Nationalism.
    I don't see this debate as Nationalism. I see it as the age old debate about what matters more: jumps or overall skating. The CoP is designed to reward what you do, not penalize you for things like jumps. It's ridiculous to suggest that Kevin Reynolds should beat Chan because he had 2 quads, as someone else has said. You get points for what you do. Period. And PCS does matter as much as the TES, so all those things like edge quality, speed, linking steps, balanced program, etc. add up to points. We used to hear complaints about Buttle. It's the Browning vs Stoyko debate. It's the Olympic men's final all over again. I don't save my praise in this regard just for Chan. There about a handful of male skaters around the world who really use the CoP: Chan, Daisuke, Evan, etc.

    I also think the conspiracy theories are over the top. It's not hard to figure out why the home team tends to finish on the podium at home GP events. The math is simple:

    1. The home team sends the most skaters. The odds are going to be higher that someone lands on the podium.

    2. The home team tends to send their top skaters to their home event, while the other countries tend to send their lower ranked teams. As nicely explained to me above, this is done on purpose to make sure the top teams don't meet until the GPF and worlds. It just so happens that Canada has top ranked skaters/teams across the disciplines.

    A good example of how this isn't nationalism. Alissa (although falling) had the best program of the night, and absolutely deserved to win the women's event. She also got a standing ovation from the Canadian crowd.

  10. #340
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    Quote Originally Posted by KKonas View Post
    Oda, Reynolds, and Rippon were probably and understandably dispirited knowing that going into their FS it would be near impossible to beat Chan after his scores. Chan did skate well in the FS, but should never have been so close to the other leaders in points after the SP he performed. That's why this situation is so wrong. It's discouraging to the rest of the competitors.
    Adam's & Nobu's faces particularly seemed downcast in their FS. Nobu even botched his quad and there were reports that he was landing 4X3 consitently in practice, so I thought it would've been an easy jump for him.

    I don't think Patrick Chan is invincible because of the scores he received this competition. When he meets his match score-wise (Daisuke) at the GPF or Worlds, it'll probably be very close between them, but I'd probably give the edge to Dai because of his consistency and his tendency to peak later in the season.

  11. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I don't see this debate as Nationalism. I see it as the age old debate about what matters more: jumps or overall skating. The CoP is designed to reward what you do, not penalize you for things like jumps. It's ridiculous to suggest that Kevin Reynolds should beat Chan because he had 2 quads, as someone else has said. You get points for what you do. Period. And PCS does matter as much as the TES, so all those things like edge quality, speed, linking steps, balanced program, etc. add up to points. We used to hear complaints about Buttle. It's the Browning vs Stoyko debate. It's the Olympic men's final all over again. I don't save my praise in this regard just for Chan. There about a handful of male skaters around the world who really use the CoP: Chan, Daisuke, Evan, etc.

    I also think the conspiracy theories are over the top. It's not hard to figure out why the home team tends to finish on the podium at home GP events. The math is simple:

    1. The home team sends the most skaters. The odds are going to be higher that someone lands on the podium.

    2. The home team tends to send their top skaters to their home event, while the other countries tend to send their lower ranked teams. As nicely explained to me above, this is done on purpose to make sure the top teams don't meet until the GPF and worlds. It just so happens that Canada has top ranked skaters/teams across the disciplines.

    A good example of how this isn't nationalism. Alissa (although falling) had the best program of the night, and absolutely deserved to win the women's event. She also got a standing ovation from the Canadian crowd.
    Well said, I don't have the patience to answer every single question asked of me so you summarize my thinking very well. Someone who constantly used the word "ridiculous" or "outrageous" because they think a certain element should be +1 instead of +2 for instance - you know they are full of BS. Unfortunately, there is a lot of those here.

  12. #342
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Well said, I don't have the patience to answer every single question asked of me so you summarize my thinking very well. Someone who constantly used the word "ridiculous" or outrageous" because they think a certain element should be +1 instead of +2 or instance - you know they are seeking attention. Unfortunately, there is a lot of those here.
    Be fair, wally. Blades didn't just say that about ONE element, he said that about a number of them. And there is a major difference between those two precepts.

  13. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Be fair, wally. Blades didn't just say that about ONE element, he said that about a number of them. And there is a major difference between those two precepts.
    And to be clear, my comment wasn't directed at one comment or one element alone, or one single person - it's definitely patterns that I am seeing here and I just have to roll my eyes.

  14. #344
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    Oh, Patrick again.. with dirty jumps, dirty landings,... it's unbelievable...

  15. #345
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    And to be clear, my comment wasn't directed at one comment or one element alone, or one single person - it's definitely patterns that I am seeing here and I just have to roll my eyes.
    Wally, you must still recognize that there are discrepancies in judging, which explains why we have a range of GoE and PCS marks, even amongst a trained judging panel. So it is reasonably fair to say that people may not be wrong in claiming a skater deserves lower GoE or PCS, as long as they can back up their claims with good justification according to the rules. Some things are subjective, who is to say xx skater had a better interpretation of his programme than yy skater?

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