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Thread: Men - Free program

  1. #361
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Figure88 View Post
    Agreed. I think this kind of blatant misjudging is probably more common at lesser competitions, namely ones leading up to GPF. I recall at last seasons' competitions, there was similar controversy in the overscoring---namely of Joannie Rochette. Bottom line is: judges will bend the rules to have their top skaters eligible for GPF.
    That is the part that I don't understand about the "politics and bias" theories. The judges in the men's event were from Spain, Germany , Russia, Canada, USA, Japan, Sweden, Italy and France.

    What possible motive would any of these judges (except Canada) have for inflating the scores of Patrick Chan?

    Why would any of them want to cheat to insure that Chan makes the Grand Prix Final, rather than Oda (Japan), Rippon (USA), Fernandez (Spain), Preaubert (France), Gachinski (Russia), Berntsson (Sweden) or Bachini (Italy)?
    Last edited by Mathman; 10-31-2010 at 12:31 PM.

  2. #362
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    What possibly motive would any of these judges (except Canada) have for inflating the scores of Patrick Chan?
    I'm not a believer of conspiracy theories but it could be a case of vote swapping. Federations push only for their strongest skaters who have the best shot at medalling and trade votes with other countries, such as in the SLC scandal. You
    scratch my back, I scratch yours. Or maybe outright bribery in some form; political support for people seeking for higher posts (eg technical committees).

    But really, i've never really understood PCS scores anyway so I prefer to think that the judges see what I don't. People have remarked that Chan does look much more impressive live; maybe a poster who has seen him skate live can comment?

  3. #363
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    Kerrs just lost with that flawed lift.

  4. #364
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishieru07 View Post
    But really, i've never really understood PCS scores anyway so I prefer to think that the judges see what I don't.
    A lttle bit off topic, but that is what is wrong with the CoP. The audience is no longer allowed to feel like they are involved in the competition. We just have to sit on our hands until the judges tell us whether the program we just saw was good or bad.

  5. #365
    I like pie. Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    A lttle bit off topic, but that is what is wrong with the CoP. The audience is no longer allowed to feel like they are involved in the competition. We just have to sit on our hands until the judges tell us whether the program we just saw was good or bad.
    not really, we still boo when we don't like it, and hte ISU goes back and tweaks. Expecting this judging system to work straight out of the gate like so many believed was unrealistic. It's more complicated than just doing "you're first, second, third"

    maybe they should just do away with judges all together and just stand all the skaters out on center ice and go to each one and allow the audience to clap for the one they liked best. Because THAT would be SO MUCH MORE fair :rolleyes:

  6. #366
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    Quote Originally Posted by tonichelle View Post
    not really, we still boo when we don't like it, and hte isu goes back and tweaks. Expecting this judging system to work straight out of the gate like so many believed was unrealistic. It's more complicated than just doing "you're first, second, third"

    maybe they should just do away with judges all together and just stand all the skaters out on center ice and go to each one and allow the audience to clap for the one they liked best. Because that would be so much more fair :rolleyes:
    thank-you

  7. #367
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Exactly! 6.0 had major problems. COP has major problems. Any judging system that employs such different subjective opinions to decide outcomes is going to have major problems/disagreements. I don't believe this sport can exist without controversy. Gymnastics is the same way. I think for an athlete to decide to participate in this sport, he/she HAS to be prepared to face heartbreaking results and expect what is perceived to be unfair outcomes. He/she has to have an intense love for the sport itself because the system and the politics involved will really challenge their patience and faith. It's really the same way for us as viewers.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 10-31-2010 at 01:40 PM.

  8. #368
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishieru07 View Post
    I'm not a believer of conspiracy theories but it could be a case of vote swapping. Federations push only for their strongest skaters who have the best shot at medalling and trade votes with other countries, such as in the SLC scandal. You
    scratch my back, I scratch yours. Or maybe outright bribery in some form; political support for people seeking for higher posts (eg technical committees). ?
    I think that would only work, if (same or even various) judges from same countries would be in each of the GP events? And that is never the case, I believe, as the judges come from so many different countries... On the other hand of course everything is possible, LOL.
    Last edited by Jaana; 10-31-2010 at 02:00 PM.

  9. #369
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    maybe they should just do away with judges all together and just stand all the skaters out on center ice and go to each one and allow the audience to clap for the one they liked best. Because THAT would be SO MUCH MORE fair :rolleyes:
    No, that would not be a good system. But I do think that, from the point of view of the audience, figure skating competitions are not as satisfying emotionally as they used to be.

    Part of the reason, in my humble opinion, is what mishieru07 said. When we don't agree with the results, now we tend to say, "well, I'm a big dummy and the ISU knows all, so I'll just flip the channel."

    Under the old system, I was still a big dummy, but for some reason I didn't flip the channel as much.

  10. #370
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    No, that would not be a good system. But I do think that, from the point of view of the audience, figure skating competitions are not as satisfying emotionally as they used to be.

    Part of the reason, in my humble opinion, is what mishieru07 said. When we don't agree with the results, now we tend to say, "well, I'm a big dummy and the ISU knows all, so I'll just flip the channel."

    Under the old system, I was still a big dummy, but for some reason I didn't flip the channel as much.
    And if popularity is the goal..... then we need to solve this. Of course, I hope popularity isn't the goal.

  11. #371
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    That is the part that I don't understand about the "politics and bias" theories. The judges in the men's event were from Spain, Germany , Russia, Canada, USA, Japan, Sweden, Italy and France.

    What possible motive would any of these judges (except Canada) have for inflating the scores of Patrick Chan?

    Why would any of them want to cheat to insure that Chan makes the Grand Prix Final, rather than Oda (Japan), Rippon (USA), Fernandez (Spain), Preaubert (France), Gachinski (Russia), Berntsson (Sweden) or Bachini (Italy)?
    isn't Dore the number 2 Man in the ISU and wouldn't it be nice if we pleased him said the judge to the score sheet?

  12. #372
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    And if popularity is the goal..... then we need to solve this. Of course, I hope popularity isn't the goal.
    I agree, that is the key question. I think that the ISU is more and more drawing a circle around itself to keep outsiders out.

    That's OK...I guess...

    Edited to add: But it would also be nice for skaters if they got to perform in front of full houses, and on network TV, and if they could attract sponsorships so that their parents wouldn't have to fork out a hundred thousand dollars a year to keep them on the ice. And it would be nice if there were more opportunities for touring and performing after their competitive careers are over.

    So I don't think we should be so quick to dismiss "popularity" as mere pandering to the unwashed masses.
    Last edited by Mathman; 10-31-2010 at 03:26 PM.

  13. #373
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    A lttle bit off topic, but that is what is wrong with the CoP. The audience is no longer allowed to feel like they are involved in the competition. We just have to sit on our hands until the judges tell us whether the program we just saw was good or bad.
    Haha I've always felt this way, even under 6.0! I know you love Michelle Kwan but I must confess I don't understand why Shizuka Arakawa didn't get a single 6.0 for Artistic Impression for her FS at 2004 Worlds, for example. I thought Shizuka absolutely sold her programme and was phenomenal. What I like about the IJS is the objectivity of it, at least technically. I still don't know to this day what deserves a 5.4 or a 5.6 on technical elements. Artistry has been and will always be subjective, regardless of what system is used.

    As a dancer though, I fully understand that some things cannot come across on a screen as well as live. Things like stage presence and charisma. Not quite the same as watching through a screen! I don't always agree with the PCS and occassionally wonder if the judges are on a high but they are professionals, not me.

    Eh I'm more inclined to think a lack of emotional involvement is due to the IJS structure. We do tend to see fairly generic programmes (arabesque spiral, biellmann, side split catch foot anyone?), especially when in the early years when they had so many required elements and the skaters were struggling with the transition! It has gotten better and I do have many favourites who have skated wonderful, emotionally satisfying programmes. Crappy judging hasn't really stopped me from enjoying skaters - Akiko is a good example. I just take things with a huge pinch of salt.

  14. #374
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    Well, first of all, I should state that #8 is an awful criteria for determining the GOE of a jump and needs to be removed from the rules. The placement of a jump in relation to the music is part of choreography and interpretation. It should have absolutely no bearing on scoring the QUALITY of the jump itself. Spins and footwork are different because they last longer (and they also never have to be the same, whereas a Quad or Triple Axel or Triple Lutz, etc, is ALWAYS pretty much the same thing) so it makes more sense that one aspect of judging those elements, especially with footwork, is tied to their musicality.

    That aside, if #8 is to be used to give an extra bonus to the GOE of a jump, it should only apply when the jump is used to interpret the music in an extremely special way. Patrick Chan's Quad did not have any special relation with the music.
    I disagree. I think it is used as a bullet to assess if the jump is executed right on the beat (the planned timing--no delay, no rush into the jump), not about interpretation or choreography at all.

    You said No to 4) good height and distance but Tracy Willson commented on his good height ("he made the quad look like a double, the speed, the height, and the ease"). I believe you are an established skating expert as she is, and she is potentially biased as you are. So one canceled the other. It is really a judgment call. It can go either way and deserves no protest. I would give the judges the benefit of doubt because they watched the jump live in the actual competition. You were not in the competition, were you? Judging from a TV angle can be very skewed.

    It is so ridiculous that some posters even assigned No to #6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences and 7) effortless throughout. It just shows how biased and self-serving one can be to express their vested interest.

    I know the quad is only one element of the whole thing. But I am no skating expert and don't know about the rules very much. It is the only element someone lay out the guidelines for me, and through the guidelines I can see some people are watching through colored glasses and crying through their predetermined assumption.

  15. #375
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    What is wrong with the CoP? The simple answer is to restudy it, and change much of its structure. Aside from the unnecessary GoEs, which the public is not fully equipt to understand, there is the confusion between the CoP Program Component and the 6.0 Performance scores. They are not the same, and it puzzles many fans who enjoy the contests, particularly if they were used to the 6.0 system. They are not about to study the CoP.

    Mishieru - I also danced 100 years ago both on procenium stages and in the round stages. FS is like in the round since it is in an Arena. What fans who watch on TV see the skaters as being in procenium setting because that camera never leaves their body, but if you see LIVE skating, one does not get that procenium look from the skaters.

    I agree that emotional involvement is lacking in many skaters, but that is due to their lack of life experiences and age. There is much more emotional involvement in Ice Dance. I think with a partner there is more emotions. For the Single skater, a Coach will show them how to mimic emotion.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 10-31-2010 at 03:19 PM.

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