Men - Free program

[chuckm]

However, Skate Canada does have one systemic problem that some of the other federations don't have. For whatever reason, the field of non-Canadians in Canada often seems weak.

Year after year (regardless of when SC happens---last year SC was the final GP event), SC fields tend to be on the weak side because it enhances the opportunity of the weaker Canadian skaters to place higher than they might in a more competitive field. JMO.

[waxel]

Not getting into all the minutiae ... but a win with 4 falls is ludicrous.

[museksk8r]

What should be worth more, ... a fall on a quad with good rotation, or a clean triple?

I would give a fall on a rotated quad the same worth as a 3toe probably. A fall on a 4toe should certainly not be worth the same as a clean 3Lutz for example. 3Lutz is undervalued in the jump points chart. Think of how many skaters who are considered to be top skaters struggle really hard to achieve a proper Lutz. Many of them still don't have one. 6 points is not enough for that jump IMO.

[Medusa]

Honestly, people seem to change their minds about what they want over and over again. Some want to see perfect programs, some want to see quads, some want to see difficulty, some want artistry and some want it all. And next week, they'll be arguing against whatever they wanted last week. Gah skating fans!!!

Why aren't people allowed to change their minds? Especially in such a subjective sport as figure skating? I can actually have a long discussion in my head with myself about what should really matter in skating and never get to a point where I have a clear cut, black-white opinion. It's a little like this: Whoa, I love this Quad, the others before didn't land one. This guy should win. -(seconds later)- Huh? Oops, fell asleep during Quad guy's step sequence. -(next skater)- Maybe the guy with the clean non-Quad jumps should win, his program was entertaining, no falling asleep here. Plus the program was squeaky clean, he should totally win. -(next skater)- Wow, what a brilliant skater! Mad skills! Yes, he doubled something and wobbled on another jump, but superb spins. Amazing interpretation. Squeaky clean is so overrated! -(next skater)- Jeez, this guy's spins suck majorly, but those jumps, such height, incredible, two different Quads! Program a little generic, but those jumps, and the charisma! And clean program! Maybe he should win!?

(please Chan is certainly not handsome)

Huh?

[dorispulaski]

Year after year (regardless of when SC happens---last year SC was the final GP event), SC fields tend to be on the weak side because it enhances the opportunity of the weaker Canadian skaters to place higher than they might in a more competitive field. JMO.

I've thought that...and it may be, that having been held immediately after SA in the past, and getting a weak field,the federation said, Geez, this works really well for our skaters.

[ImaginaryPogue]

Year after year (regardless of when SC happens---last year SC was the final GP event), SC fields tend to be on the weak side because it enhances the opportunity of the weaker Canadian skaters to place higher than they might in a more competitive field. JMO.

I'd definitely would be interested in exploring this further. Especially last year.

[Joesitz]

Not getting into all the minutiae ... but a win with 4 falls is ludicrous.

Falls are forgiveable but only in personal interests judging. Not so in Ice Dance. There is no forgiveness for a Fall in that Discipline.

[Blades of Passion]

Would Stefan Lindemann have a world bronze if worlds weren't in Germany?

No, although in THIS case it was totally the skater pushing themselves to skate out of their body and give the best performances of their life in front of the home crowd. I don't believe any politics were involved there. Lindemann should have beaten Joubert in the SP, even.

[bekalc]

Your comparison is deeply flawed. Surgeons who are trained and licensed are expected to be able to do the procedures. Skaters, 99.9 percent, will never be able to do 4 revolution jumps even when they train all their lives. It is incredible hard to train someone to do 4 revolution jump correctly, without cheating and all. Hence, mathman's comment is quite ignorant in my view. Being able to do Quads on its own is very much praiseworthy especially when they are done with such height and distance and effortlessly, regardless of fall or otherwise. That's why the rules are rewarding fully rotated Quads over clean triples by almost 3 times amount of points and many people think the rule changes this year is justified.

I think rule changes of landing clean quads IS justified. I don't think the rule change of falling on your butt is justified. A fall is an egregious error, it should not be rewarded. This is figure skating-not figure falling. I'm fine with someone still winning if the rest of the program is great and clean. But huge visible errors need to be penalized severely. Its ridiculous that Chan can fall 3 times in the short and be within 3 points of a clean Adam Rippon.


As for having penalities on the quad, will stop people from trying I disagree. I think people weren't trying the quad because it wasn't rewarded enough. Falling on the quad versus not trying it at all only loses someone really the points of an easy double axel. If you do everything else well you can make it up. Giving someone six points for falling on a quad, takes away the point advantage of the person who actually landed the quad.
Under 6.0 of all the men essentially did the quad in the short, even though there was huge penalities for falling in the short program. They did it because they knew they needed it to win. If you offer men a HUGE advantage for landing a clean quad, many will think its worth the risk to go for it, versus going for the easy double axel.
And I'm sorry I doubt Jeff Buttle ever truly mastered the quad, he was falling due to falling. Love Jeff but I was thrilled he didn't win worlds quad falling.

[skatinginbc]

The judging the way it is now will hurt skating's popularity.
I am not a skater, just a couch potato. Here is what I notice
1. Falling. If you fall, it's very noticeable. Also step outs, hands down and wobbly landings are noticeable.
2. Speed of the skater.
3. If the costume and music are nice. (Subjective to the nth degree, of course)
4. General gracefulness and line.
5. Anything unique and different like Adam's lutz, or Phillippe Candoloro's sword fight.
What a couch potato like myself cannot see on television is:
1. Underrotations. You can't really tell unless they show it in slo-mo.
2. Flutzing. This you cannot see at all without slow-mo.
3. Depth of edge. I'm not even sure what this is.

There are two major problems here, with the scoring system. When a skater makes a "visible" mistake or three, but beats someone who made an "invisible" mistake (like flutzing)the viewing audience will be disgusted and tune out. This sport exists as entertainment, as do all sports. If it's no longer entertaining because fallers beat flutzers, and people see a beautiful program lose because of teeny-tiny picky things, they will stop watching. And a spectator sport that is not watched is not guaranteed to exist.

The other problem is that the PCS seems to judge the program more than the skating. And if skaters skate the same program all season--and basically get the same scores for that program--if you have a very small downgrade for falling/mistakes, you have basically set it up so that certain skaters will be unbeatable. If Skater A always gets 4 points higher with her program than Skater B in the program components, and she falls only 3 times, and a fall is a one point deduction, then Skater B can't beat her. No matter how well she does that night.

That may be realistic--maybe Skater A always has a better line and better edges--but it is no longer a sport. As one writer said, baseball players aren't automatically waved to first because it's recognized they are the best. They have to actually get a hit.

Patrick is a great skater, and when he's on I bet he's fantastic. But I am sick of him falling and winding up ahead of those who remain upright.

I am a couch potato, too. And I don't even know how to skate, whether on ice or on concrete. And in general, I agree with what you said. Those visible hiccups that interrupt the flow of the program bother me very much. In my own ideal world, they contribute to the "Deduction" category, e.g., two-foot -0.5, step-out -0.5, one hand down -0.5, wobble landing -0.5, minor stumble -0.5, both hands down -1, major stumble without fall -1, fall with quick recovery -1.5, fall with ugly, awkward, or long recovery -2. And the more hiccups a skater makes, the more severe the penalty should be: Deduction x 1.5 if 2 < D (the raw total deduction) < = 3, and x 2 if 3 < D < = 4, and x 3 if .......

PCS should be judged as if those hiccups never occur, so there will be no double penalty (because they have been accounted for in the Deduction category). TES remains the same principle as it is now. Will it constitute a double penalty for a hand down both in TES and in Deduction category? No, one (TES) is for the jump, the other (Deduction) reflects its impact on the program presentation as a whole. It is deducted for two different reasons. In other words, I see Deduction as an extension of PCS, which I will term as "PCS Deduction", in contrast to rule deduction (such as time violation, e.g.). It is just a thought from the view of a layman.

[dorispulaski]

In dance, if your errors interrupt the flow of your program, you get dinged in PCS as well. Check out the Skate Canada FD thread for a look of what happens when a team has a bad competition vs a good competition. Arnold & Trojek did very well at Nebelhorn, but made more errors at Skate Canada in both the FD and SD. They lost points vs. Nebelhorn, in base value, GOE and PCS.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post525253

[Tinymavy15]

unlike most people here, it seems to me that the system works fine 90% of the time. MOst skaters are penalized harshly for falls on the quad and that is why almost nobody attempted them last year. I do like that they are worth more now and I like that so many of the men are trying them. What I do not like is how all rules go out the window when Chan takes the ice. No matter what he does, the judges worship at his feet. Does he have good chreography? Yes. Smooth edges and speed? Yes. But so do many other skaters, Rippon being one of them. Chan has yet to really prove himself to be consistant when it counts, a trait the judges usually appreciate with rewarding PCS. Jeremy Abbott has suffered cases of nerves when it mattered most and seems to be paying the price in PCS. no so with Chan. Chan does not get the flow out of his jumps that the japanese men get, and is re-using his program for the second year in a row (SP was used for two years, now LP is). Even Chan was stunned by his scores. Both Commentatros thought Oda was the winner.

[Tonichelle]

Tony Wheeler's part 2 of his men's scoring is up - http://www.flutzingaround.com/2010/1...dging-men.html - again I think his is the most fair look I've read so far.

[mishieru07]

Huh?

That was in response to bekalc comparing the competition to a beauty contest. I know that we could debate until the cows come home about who deserves to win but it were a beauty contest, Chan will certainly never win in my book. :P

If I were SC, I'd definitely make the most of my GP event to help the Canadians get good rankings have be well positioned for a GPF slot, even if it means taking on weaker skaters, especially from those seeded (though I imagine Lepisto would have placed better than Mao at NHK). Do you think USFSA should have Asada (current form not withstanding) and Ando at Skate America against Flatt instead of Lepisto and Kostner, two relatively inconsistent skaters? Or either D/W / V/M and P/B at CoR against I/K and B/S? With F/S and the Kerrs, they have a good shot at Silver, maybe even Gold if F/S makes mistakes, which isn't unheard of. With the former combination, it'll probably be Bronze. Really, as long as the federations play by the rules, I'm perfectly fine with whoever they pick. SC isn't the only one playing the game.

[Mathman]

^ In most years, host federations are limited in how much they can water down the field to help their own skaters. The year after the Olympics typically features a lot of retirements from the top ranks, but under the rules each Grand Prix event must have one of the top three from the previous worlds and one of 4th through 6th.

Plus, skaters meeting certain qualifications are guaranteed two GP events, so host federations often have no choice but to invite a strong field.