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Men - Free program

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
Since you said with such authority that #8 is a NO , I would like to ask you if there is a more detailed official definition in the figure skating world regarding "element matched to the musical structure". I am not saying I am definately right, but to my trained ear, I--a person who had won a piano concerto contest, who had taught piano for living--could not agree with your assertion. Maybe in figure skating, the so-called "muscial structure" has a special definition. I don't know. Can you shed light on it?

Well, first of all, I should state that #8 is an awful criteria for determining the GOE of a jump and needs to be removed from the rules. The placement of a jump in relation to the music is part of choreography and interpretation. It should have absolutely no bearing on scoring the QUALITY of the jump itself. Spins and footwork are different because they last longer (and they also never have to be the same, whereas a Quad or Triple Axel or Triple Lutz, etc, is ALWAYS pretty much the same thing) so it makes more sense that one aspect of judging those elements, especially with footwork, is tied to their musicality.

That aside, if #8 is to be used to give an extra bonus to the GOE of a jump, it should only apply when the jump is used to interpret the music in an extremely special way. Patrick Chan's Quad did not have any special relation with the music.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Do anyone think PChan could get this kind of points from COR? Let's see.;)

Only if he skated way better. If this particular competition were held in Russia he would get scores for the same performances of like:

Short program- 66 points
Long program- 158 points

I havent looked at the final point totals but he would be lucky to even be 3rd.
 

mishieru07

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Well, first of all, I should state that #8 is an awful criteria for determining the GOE of a jump and needs to be removed from the rules.

That aside, if #8 is to be used to give an extra bonus to the GOE of a jump, it should only apply when the jump is used to interpret the music in an extremely special way.

I agree that it's quite nonsensical but the fact remains that it IS a rule, stupid or not. In this case, which skater or a particular jump do you feel merits this? I'm just curious to see what would merit such a point, because personally I can't really think of any, going by your standards.

I disagree that the base value of an attempted quad (or triple axel) attempt should have a lower value. That will just dissuade young skaters from trying to learn harder jumps. Why bother when it will be penalized badly if it fails? Might as well play safe and go for jumps that they can do well consistently rather than risk it. The costs will outweigh the potential gains.

Off topic: You do have some very valid suggestions that could be beneficial to the IJS. Perhaps you could get in touch with a judge or maybe the national FS association? I don't think they'd mind having feedback from the audience and at least there's a chance that changes might be made in the future. Which means we see better judging and less outrage at ridiculous (albeit by the book) scoring.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
I disagree that the base value of an attempted quad (or triple axel) attempt should have a lower value. That will just dissuade young skaters from trying to learn harder jumps. Why bother when it will be penalized badly if it fails? Might as well play safe and go for jumps that they can do well consistently rather than risk it. The costs will outweigh the potential gains.

They won't be "penalized badly", they will be penalized FAIRLY. A fall on a rotated Quad should be worth the same as a good Double Axel, but not several points more (a fall on an underrotated Quad should still garner some points too...up until this season it didn't). Making a fall on a Quad worth way more than an easier, cleanly landed jump is bad because it promotes messy programs with Quads exclusively over excellent programs without Quads.

With the Triple Axel you similarly should not be getting a bunch of points for a badly botched attempted. You should still get SOME points to credit the rotation, yes, but not more than a really well executed Double Axel.

Off topic: You do have some very valid suggestions that could be beneficial to the IJS. Perhaps you could get in touch with a judge or maybe the national FS association?

Already have some tentacles wiggling around. I don't have the time to personally canvass all the judges (LOL...they are generally not the people who enact change anyway) and influential figures within all of the various National bodies, although it would certainly be easier to change things if lots more influential individuals could stamp my thoughts and let it be known.
 

inskate

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 27, 2007
IMy observation is that Oda's performance remained mostly at one level - the music did not suit him, it seems as though he was executing those movements b/c someone told him so, not because he wanted to. His choreography in general lacks sophistication b/c he didn't really understand what he was skating to, thus unable to accentuate or better personalize parts of his program to better capture the attention o the audience.

I totally disagree that the music didn't suit Nobunari.

He skated this LP in a local competition already, and the fan response was very positive (and the Japanese fans are quite strict and don't hesitate to point out anything they don't like about the program). A lot of people mentioned that that the program was a perfect fit for Nobunari and one of the best he's ever had. One person mentioned that "this is the program they've been waiting for" from Nobunari, bringing out his maturity, skating skills and charisma.
This reflected in the judges' scores, too - Nobunari usually gets the highest marks for SS, but this time two judges felt that his TR was equal or better to his SS, and in gereral all the components were scored quite highly.

That said, I don't think Nobu skated his program well here - if the fans' descriptions didn't mention that the program is supposed to switch from a serious mood to playful and comedic, I probably wouldn't be able to tell. The entire program seemed more "depressed" than "playful" to me.

I agree with chuckm that he probably knew he wasn't going to get the scores he needed no matter how well he skated, and, sadly, his disspirited performance just gave the judges all the more reasons to hold him down. I just wish he learned to leave his nerves on the rinkside and skate the lights out of the program...
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Both Hanyu and Oda just skated passed their music in very business like manner..

I haven't watched Chan video, but I already watched Yuzuru and don't understand how you claim that he just skate passed his music?. He may not has a divine skating skills ,but in term of interpretation , in my opinion, he is much better than Chan who skate with the same style of every music(except his SP this year). At least Hanyu movement suit the tones in Zigeunerweisen really really well, but Chan skate didn't capture the powerful music like Phantom of the opera at all.

From the result here I think I can already predicted who will be next olympic champion:bang:
 

hurrah

Medalist
Joined
Aug 8, 2009
It used to be that I would conjure up images of Due South and Michael J. Fox and words like 'Canadian, eh?' and Michael Ondaatje, when I thought Canada.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Arguing about the merits of the quad is fruitless as is the whole system of GoEs. Why not have the judges just score each skating element on a scale of zero to ten as it is done in other judged sports. The scored element would then be multiplied by its base value factor. All the results of the factored elements would be added to the total score. You would really have a number representing the consensus of the judges as it is in Gymnastics, Diving, and other judged sports.

The judges should know, and probably do. the accepted definition of an element by the ISU. No need for a Caller and his team to be there. I find that insulting to the judges that they are incomplete.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
There will always be disagreements among fans even those among fans who normally agree with you. SC's Men's results, for me:

All the contestants have shown better in the past, but it is what one sees presently that count as 'the best'. Fernandez did his quad, he was totally involved in the music, he has more than average flow, and his over all elements were standard perfect and there were no Falls to disrupt the program.

Javier Fernandez performed the best of that Night!! There is nothing like a clean skate. No point in discussing the merits or demerits of the other well seasoned skaters.
 

Figure88

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Partick’s score in the FS is arguable because it could probably go both ways. However, I think his scores in SP was ridiculous. He received the highest PCS of about 39 points ---3 points higher than Adam and 1 point higher than Nobu’s flawless SPs despite 3 obvious falls that affected his performance. Some common sense should have been used when applying the skating rules…3 falls should not result in a top score and should have been deducted in the PCS at least...the mistakes were not adequately reflected in the scores. There are ways to prop up a skater and that’s at least partly of what was happening here---making sure that he wasn’t totally out of the competition so that he was still in medal position before FS to ensure his placement in the GPF.
 

Figure88

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Regardless, it's not at all impossible that most of the judges were simply WRONG either. The bottom line is that Patrick Chan was overscored. It happens all the name to people who are "anointed". Suddenly everything they do becomes seen as better than the things "lesser" skaters do, even though that is often not the case.

The anointing of Patrick Chan + the politics of Skate Canada + the awful judging system + the poor judging all came together to create the drastically overinflated scores he received. Nobody is arguing he didn't deserved to win the LP, but that doesn't mean he wasn't overscored. ESPECIALLY in the Short Program.

Agreed. I think this kind of blatant misjudging is probably more common at lesser competitions, namely ones leading up to GPF. I recall at last seasons' competitions, there was similar controversy in the overscoring---namely of Joannie Rochette. Bottom line is: judges will bend the rules to have their top skaters eligible for GPF. But I think the judging becomes fairer as the season progresses and at the major competitions---like the GPF or Worlds. So I'd expect this kind of poor judging to be exclusive to this competition only and not indicative of how the season will go.
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
Partick’s score in the FS is arguable because it could probably go both ways. However, I think his scores in SP was ridiculous. He received the highest PCS of about 39 points ---3 points higher than Adam and 1 point higher than Nobu’s flawless SPs despite 3 obvious falls that affected his performance. Some common sense should have been used when applying the skating rules…3 falls should not result in a top score and should have been deducted in the PCS at least...the mistakes were not adequately reflected in the scores. There are ways to prop up a skater and that’s at least partly of what was happening here---making sure that he wasn’t totally out of the competition so that he was still in medal position before FS to ensure his placement in the GPF.

Remnants of 6.0 thinking - the saving of someone's reputation despite the performance. That's what the IJS was supposed to stop. Clearly these rule changes initiated unintended consequences with a result that copies a similar situation for a popular skater skating in his own country. Oda, Reynolds, and Rippon were probably and understandably dispirited knowing that going into their FS it would be near impossible to beat Chan after his scores. Chan did skate well in the FS, but should never have been so close to the other leaders in points after the SP he performed. That's why this situation is so wrong. It's discouraging to the rest of the competitors.
 

hongligl

Final Flight
Joined
Mar 18, 2004
They won't be "penalized badly", they will be penalized FAIRLY. A fall on a rotated Quad should be worth the same as a good Double Axel, but not several points more (a fall on an underrotated Quad should still garner some points too...up until this season it didn't). Making a fall on a Quad worth way more than an easier, cleanly landed jump is bad because it promotes messy programs with Quads exclusively over excellent programs without Quads.

I doubt that would be a good measure. Girls can do double Axel well and land it beautifully, evan with difficult entry. How many of them can rotate 4 times in the air?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Still, rotating four times in the air then falling on your backside is not particularly praiseworthy.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Do anyone think PChan could get this kind of points from COR? Let's see.;)

Maybe justice will finally be served and he will place 6th there, thus failing to make the Grand Prix Final . . . I can hope. ;)
 

Medusa

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 6, 2007
I think Patrick deserved the win. He might have been a bit overscored here and there, but it doesn't really rock my world. He clearly was the best skater out there yesterday - compared to Oda (I already forgot all about the program except for the beautiful first 3A) and Rippon (quite slow, average skating skills, average jumping technique, boring programs -- I still like him, but he is currently travelling to a country that I don't want to visit: very bland, very tame, very boring).

And the short program - they could have given Patrick less, but what's with the outrage? It's not like they handed Patrick a World Title and an Olympic Title, they just gave him the win of a tiny GP-event. Two years ago lots of people were raging against SkateCanada and Chan's marks too, including me - but that worked out alright, the judges didn't go on to hand him everything like some (including me) predicted.

I hope he wins Russia and has a good GPF for the first time in his career. He still has room to improve, which is good - you don't want to start the season in top-form.
 

mishieru07

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
I doubt that would be a good measure. Girls can do double Axel well and land it beautifully, evan with difficult entry. How many of them can rotate 4 times in the air?

Just 1. And IIRC, she hasn't had it ratified for years.

I can see where BoP and Mathman are coming from, but I stand by my view. The risks of doing a quad are so high and if the possible points one could lose from falling/ under-rotating it as opposed to landing a nice 3Lz with difficult entry and good GoE are considerable, then it would be smart to go for a safer layout, unless the skater in question happens to be a gifted jumper like Reynolds or Plushenko. We need to reward people sufficiently for attempting quads and triple axels. Up to this season, many ladies did 3 2A. Why? Because the points awarded for attempting triples weren't all that much higher, especially the 3T. No point attempting to land one for the few points that you could possibly gain and risk getting URs, a fall, or negative GoE. Everything boils down to cost-benefit analysis.

I think the rest of the IJS system sufficiently emphasizes that a skater must be all-rounded; Chan for one certainly benefits from it. At any rate, landing quads, successfully or otherwise, doesn't necessarily mean a skater would win. Just ask Kevin van de Perren or even Plushenko.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
"The other side of the World."

Nationalism. :disapp:

I don't see this debate as Nationalism. I see it as the age old debate about what matters more: jumps or overall skating. The CoP is designed to reward what you do, not penalize you for things like jumps. It's ridiculous to suggest that Kevin Reynolds should beat Chan because he had 2 quads, as someone else has said. You get points for what you do. Period. And PCS does matter as much as the TES, so all those things like edge quality, speed, linking steps, balanced program, etc. add up to points. We used to hear complaints about Buttle. It's the Browning vs Stoyko debate. It's the Olympic men's final all over again. I don't save my praise in this regard just for Chan. There about a handful of male skaters around the world who really use the CoP: Chan, Daisuke, Evan, etc.

I also think the conspiracy theories are over the top. It's not hard to figure out why the home team tends to finish on the podium at home GP events. The math is simple:

1. The home team sends the most skaters. The odds are going to be higher that someone lands on the podium.

2. The home team tends to send their top skaters to their home event, while the other countries tend to send their lower ranked teams. As nicely explained to me above, this is done on purpose to make sure the top teams don't meet until the GPF and worlds. It just so happens that Canada has top ranked skaters/teams across the disciplines.

A good example of how this isn't nationalism. Alissa (although falling) had the best program of the night, and absolutely deserved to win the women's event. She also got a standing ovation from the Canadian crowd.
 

Figure88

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 3, 2009
Oda, Reynolds, and Rippon were probably and understandably dispirited knowing that going into their FS it would be near impossible to beat Chan after his scores. Chan did skate well in the FS, but should never have been so close to the other leaders in points after the SP he performed. That's why this situation is so wrong. It's discouraging to the rest of the competitors.

Adam's & Nobu's faces particularly seemed downcast in their FS. Nobu even botched his quad and there were reports that he was landing 4X3 consitently in practice, so I thought it would've been an easy jump for him.

I don't think Patrick Chan is invincible because of the scores he received this competition. When he meets his match score-wise (Daisuke) at the GPF or Worlds, it'll probably be very close between them, but I'd probably give the edge to Dai because of his consistency and his tendency to peak later in the season.
 
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