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Thread: Men - Free program

  1. #346
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I guess you can demonstrate to us how you rotate 4 times in the air then since you make it sound so easy.
    No one's saying it's easy. Except we're not the ones training 20+ hours a week on the ice; that's like us saying that a surgeon didn't do a good job and them telling us to do it since we make it seem not as hard as it is -- no. That's why you spend your time practicing for what you're supposed to do, and that's why we do whatever we put our efforts in.

  2. #347
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    I don't think any of them would have held up at NHK. They were all off their best including Chan. The Quad was not the definitive point for me because several skaters at SC had quads and others did the air rotations. btw, I would say Falling is worse than two-foot landing.How can anyone tell how a skater would land after a fall? If you know something about physics, to land too much on the toe pick will cause an abrupt stop, if not a stumble or turn out. to land too much on the heel of the boot will force a skater to fall backwards. How can anyone imagine any kind landing - faulty or good if the skater Falls?

    By definition, there are 3 parts to a jump element: The Take-Off (gives the jump a name. I can't imagine what the name of a jump is with a Wrong Edge Takeoff.) The Second Part is the Air Rotations (gives the amounts of completed circles made in the air.) The Third Part is the Landing (gives the flowout importance.)

    It's obvious that a Fall on any part of a jump element is drastically WRONG. It doesn't mean a contestant can't do a proper jump; it means the contestant was not perfect on that partciular day or night.

  3. #348
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I guess you can demonstrate to us how you rotate 4 times in the air then since you make it sound so easy.
    I think you misunderstood the point of Mathman's post.

    It is not the rotating that is the sport; it is the landing cleanly after the rotation, on a thin piece of metal on the ice, preferably landing with beautiful outflow, thus making what is very difficult look easy. This is an ice sport, not an air sport. The difficulty of landing well is the part that matters most: the contact with the ice itself. The thrill of seeing a skater rotating so much in the air, but still landing in a balanced manner, is one of the things that used to bring in a TV audience. How can an audience be thrilled by a splat? Of course interest in the sport has diminished among non-skating viewers.

    In pole vaulting or high jumping, in the summer Olympics, knocking down the bar is not rewarded. It is clearing the bar that is rewarded. This is the nature of sport. Almost doesn't count.

  4. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by mishieru07 View Post
    Wally, you must still recognize that there are discrepancies in judging, which explains why we have a range of GoE and PCS marks, even amongst a trained judging panel. So it is reasonably fair to say that people may not be wrong in claiming a skater deserves lower GoE or PCS, as long as they can back up their claims with good justification according to the rules. Some things are subjective, who is to say xx skater had a better interpretation of his programme than yy skater?
    Of course, reasonable people can disagree.

    There is nothing "outrageous" about different interpretation within the rules. Whether it's Chan's 4 toe getting +2 or Oda's hand down on 4 toe getting 0 GOE. What I have an issue with is certain people who claim to have somekind of absolute authority and things they disagree with automatically = outrageous. I don't know what is more ridiculous here...

  5. #350
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dodhiyel View Post
    I think you misunderstood the point of Mathman's post.

    It is not the rotating that is the sport; it is the landing cleanly after the rotation, on a thin piece of metal on the ice, preferably landing with beautiful outflow, thus making what is very difficult look easy. This is an ice sport, not an air sport. The difficulty of landing well is the part that matters most: the contact with the ice itself. The thrill of seeing a skater rotating so much in the air, but still landing in a balanced manner, is one of the things that used to bring in a TV audience. How can an audience be thrilled by a splat? Of course interest in the sport has diminished among non-skating viewers.

    In pole vaulting or high jumping, in the summer Olympics, knocking down the bar is not rewarded. It is clearing the bar that is rewarded. This is the nature of sport. Almost doesn't count.
    Knowing that 99.9 percent of skaters can't get 4 rotations ever, I'd say it's a lot harder to complete the rotations. Being able to do it without under-rotation is already quite something, with mistake or otherwise.

  6. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I guess you can demonstrate to us how you rotate 4 times in the air then since you make it sound so easy.
    Jsut because something is hard does not mean that an athlete deserves points for attempting it unsuccessfully.

    This whole controversy could be eliminated by simply giving zero points for a jump on which the skater falls. In soccer, for instance, you do not get any points for "attempts on goal." The ball has to go into the net.

  7. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Medusa View Post
    I think Patrick deserved the win. He might have been a bit overscored here and there, but it doesn't really rock my world. He clearly was the best skater out there yesterday - compared to Oda (I already forgot all about the program except for the beautiful first 3A) and Rippon (quite slow, average skating skills, average jumping technique, boring programs -- I still like him, but he is currently travelling to a country that I don't want to visit: very bland, very tame, very boring).

    And the short program - they could have given Patrick less, but what's with the outrage? It's not like they handed Patrick a World Title and an Olympic Title, they just gave him the win of a tiny GP-event. Two years ago lots of people were raging against SkateCanada and Chan's marks too, including me - but that worked out alright, the judges didn't go on to hand him everything like some (including me) predicted.

    I hope he wins Russia and has a good GPF for the first time in his career. He still has room to improve, which is good - you don't want to start the season in top-form.
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  8. #353
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    As many have said, Chan was over marked, more so in the SP, but in the LP as well. As a long time skating fan I worry about bringing in casual fans to boost ratings and get more events on TV (not just Olympics, Worlds, and Nationals). this simply will not happen if skaters who can barely land jumps without looking shaky (hello Patrick) get much higher scores than those who do. Of course we cannot expect casual fans to appreciate many nuances of the sport but when someone falls on their *** 3x and still gets the highest (PCS) scores, I think it turns them off (not to mention many who do appreciate nuances).

  9. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Jsut because something is hard does not mean that an athlete deserves points for attempting it unsuccessfully.

    This whole controversy could be eliminated by simply giving zero points for a jump on which the skater falls. In soccer, for instance, you do not get any points for "attempts on goal." The ball has to go into the net.
    Would you agree with them giving zero points for URs (that's not a triple, that's an attempted triple) and edge calls (that's not a lutz, that's an attempted lutz)?

  10. #355
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    Quote Originally Posted by burntBREAD View Post
    No one's saying it's easy. Except we're not the ones training 20+ hours a week on the ice; that's like us saying that a surgeon didn't do a good job and them telling us to do it since we make it seem not as hard as it is -- no. That's why you spend your time practicing for what you're supposed to do, and that's why we do whatever we put our efforts in.
    Your comparison is deeply flawed. Surgeons who are trained and licensed are expected to be able to do the procedures. Skaters, 99.9 percent, will never be able to do 4 revolution jumps even when they train all their lives. It is incredible hard to train someone to do 4 revolution jump correctly, without cheating and all. Hence, mathman's comment is quite ignorant in my view. Being able to do Quads on its own is very much praiseworthy especially when they are done with such height and distance and effortlessly, regardless of fall or otherwise. That's why the rules are rewarding fully rotated Quads over clean triples by almost 3 times amount of points and many people think the rule changes this year is justified.

  11. #356
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    This whole controversy could be eliminated by simply giving zero points for a jump on which the skater falls. In soccer, for instance, you do not get any points for "attempts on goal." The ball has to go into the net.
    Respectfully, what you propose make no sense for the sport of figure skating. Such proposition would kill the sport by encouraging highly risk adverse behaviors. Your comparison to soccer is incomprehensible given the two sports are inherently different.

  12. #357
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Would you agree with them giving zero points for URs (that's not a triple, that's an attempted triple) and edge calls (that's not a lutz, that's an attempted lutz)?
    I admit that I flip-flop back and forth on the proper punishment for under-rotations and wrong-edge take-offs. I am undecided about how that aspect of the scoring system should go.

    To me, a fall is in a different category than just, "oops, I did it again." The cardinal rule of ice skating is "keep the shiny side down." Stay on your feet, then we can take it from there.

    Plus, in so far as skating is also a spectator sport, falls just kill a program in a way that other kinds of errors do not.

    (Except, of course, Alissa Czisny's fall at the end of her amazing LP. I can overlook that. )

  13. #358
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Would you agree with them giving zero points for URs (that's not a triple, that's an attempted triple) and edge calls (that's not a lutz, that's an attempted lutz)?
    I really don't want to imagine what the protocols would look like it that were the case. God bless the young skaters who are learning to do jumps or upping difficulty. And what about moves in gymnastics or diving? Unless you botch it entirely, I believe one will still get marks for executing an element, albeit with poor execution/performance marks.

    Joesitz, a fall is definitely worse than a step out, hand down, or two foot, which is why the GoE is different! That's fair enough IMO. I'm thinking about the way you broke down a jump; I would argue that all three aspects deserve to be considered, not just the landing.

    I agree that skating is not like being a doctor; any doctor who puts in effort will be reasonably competent (and to begin with, the admissions process is sufficiently stringent to ensure this). Not every skater who puts in the same amount of effort will necessarily be able to land a quad or do a spin very well. This boils down not just to sheer hard work, but also talent. You could say the same for pursuits like dance and music. Wannabe professional musicians devote so many hours to practice. Do they end up with the same level of technical ability? No.

  14. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I admit that I flip-flop back and forth on the proper punishment for under-rotations and wrong-edge take-offs. I am undecided about how that aspect of the scoring system should go.

    To me, a fall is in a different category than just, "oops, I did it again." The cardinal rule of ice skating is "keep the shiny side down." Stay on your feet, then we can take it from there.

    Plus, in so far as skating is also a spectator sport, falls just kill a program in a way that other kinds of errors do not.

    (Except, of course, Alissa Czisny's fall at the end of her amazing LP. I can overlook that. )
    I was just taking your premise to it's natural end. After all, a soccer ball hits the bar and bounces out is the same as a soccer ball being shot thirty feet over the goal.

  15. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    I was just taking your premise to it's natural end.
    IMHO that is the one thing that we can never expect of any scoring system in figure skating -- logical consistency. This is not a criticism of the sport, it's just the way it is. Arguments of the form, "you believe this, therefore you must logically believe that," unfortunately do not really have much persuasive power amid the emotional sea of opinions about skating and judging.

    But -- in the spirit of scientific analysis, not to mention irrelevant nerdy statistics -- should falls negatively affect program component scores? Here are the unfactored PCS in the SPs and LPs. Pretty consistent in this competition, I would say.

    Chan: SP (3 falls) 39.48, LP (1 fall) 42.07
    Oda SP 38.00, LP 37.14
    Rippon SP 36.43, LP 37.58
    Fernandez SP 32.42, LP 34.50 (this was deserved – his LP was better)
    Reynolds 34.06, LP 34.75
    Preaubert SP 34.14, LP 34.75

    So it looks like they penalized Patrick by about 1.295 points per fall, in PCSs.

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