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Thread: Men - Free program

  1. #376
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    IJS is soo not subjective. Not when the judge still gets to decide to give one person a 9 for P/E execution and another person a 7. Not when the judge gets to decide to give one person Plus 2 GOE for their jump and another 0 GOE for their jump. Pleeease at the concept that IJS is objective.
    And what ticks me off is that IJS clearly doesn't punish people very hard for major mistakes. You want to mention gymnastics, well as far as I'm concerned gymnastics as a sport is in much better shape. Yes there are issues and subjectivity. But the gymnasts still have to deliver. He Kexin is the best bar worker in the world-by far. But when He Kexin fell on bars at event finals-He Kexin LOST. It didn't matter that He Kexin has this wonderful high release. It didn't matter that she had this great form. She didn't deliver she lost.

    In gymnastics the only way gymnasts can make up for major mistakes is if they have this HUGE difficulty, and also if their competitors have these huge major issues of their own. Its not because someone has a nice toe point on bars, or a nice swing for example. There are issues in the sport, but the scoring makes FAR more sense. Than the scoring of Patrick Chan's SP.

    This whole thing is turning me of from the sport because its freaking clear that actual execution of your programs doesn't even matter in figure skating.

    Laughing at the concept of major glaring errors being punished in skating when fall on a rotated quad- SIX POINTS.
    Last edited by bekalc; 10-31-2010 at 03:37 PM.

  2. #377
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    I don't see this debate as Nationalism. I see it as the age old debate about what matters more: jumps or overall skating. The CoP is designed to reward what you do, not penalize you for things like jumps. It's ridiculous to suggest that Kevin Reynolds should beat Chan because he had 2 quads, as someone else has said.
    Who has said Kevin Reynolds should have beaten Chan in the LP? I certainly didn't; Kevin Reynolds' FP was lacking. He most CERTAINLY deserved to win the SP, though. By a wider margin than what was actually scored.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernDancers View Post
    A good example of how this isn't nationalism. Alissa (although falling) had the best program of the night, and absolutely deserved to win the women's event. She also got a standing ovation from the Canadian crowd.
    That's not a good example at all. Crowds are always going to give applause to great performances. We are talking about judging and politics. Patrick Chan is "money in the bank" for Skate Canada and seen as one of the best skaters in the World. He often gets overscored because judges have a tendency to score based on reputation rather than what actually happened on the ice. The judging system also doesn't punish the mistakes he made harshly enough.

    You'd have to be very uninformed to think skaters don't get a bit of a boost when skating in their home country, BTW. It is financially better for the ISU to have skaters place higher when skating in their own countries. Why? Because it increases ticket sales. When people see their countrymen doing well, it makes them want to invest in the sport more. Look at Evan Lysacek at 2009 Worlds. He scored drastically lowered than Patrick Chan all season long. Then suddenly at Worlds, in the USA, in Los Angeles no less, Lysacek's scores suddenly jumped up. Chan and Lysacek both skated cleanly in the SP, but Lysacek was scored higher.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishieru07 View Post
    I can see where BoP and Mathman are coming from, but I stand by my view. The risks of doing a quad are so high and if the possible points one could lose from falling/under-rotating it as opposed to landing a nice 3Lz with difficult entry and good GoE are considerable, then it would be smart to go for a safer layout. We need to reward people sufficiently for attempting quads and triple axels.
    No, it wouldn't be smart to go for a safer layout if you NEED to do a Quad to defeat your competitors. Quads were EVERYWHERE in 6.0 and that was when a fall meant the element was worth basically nothing - even if it was a Quad. I already wrote a whole post on why people often stopped doing the Quad under CoP - underrotations were punished far too harshly and the value of the Quad in relation to other jumps was too low. Those problems have been fixed under the rules for this season (Quad combinations are still undervalued, though). We are instead left with the problem of BAD Quads being overvalued.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishieru07 View Post
    Everything boils down to cost-benefit analysis.
    Yes, exactly. Another term is "risk/reward". As of right now, there is very little risk in attempting the Quad. If you fall, you're still ahead. You're getting FAR more points than if you hadn't done the jump at all and instead slotted in a Double Axel (which is the jump you perform in the LP if you're not doing a Quad, since every Male LP already attempts 8 Triples regardless of the Quad).

    If two programs are equal in all other regards, the skater who does an 8 Triple + Double Axel program shouldn't automatically lose to the skater who does 8 Triples + a fall on a Quad. THAT is the problem with the current rules.

  3. #378
    Custom Title Tigger's Avatar
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    I would like to thank all of you for making my Birthday yesterday. Really, I'm not kidding about that.

    Reading all of the hysterical postings in here, and I do mean hysterical, has been most entertaining. Dear Lord on High...This is only a sport. A game. But the way some of you are going on, you'd think it was life or death.

    Oh and one more thing...I've noticed that most of the posters who are going on...and on...and on...and ON are fans of a certain skater. A certain skater who we all had to put up w/winning events he really had no business winning. Who didn't even have a thimble of the talent Patrick and Adam both posess in spades. Of that certain skater boasting about how great he was when no, he really wasn't, but we had to listen to him and his fans gush ad nauseam and rub in our faces.

    Sucks to be on the other side, don't it?

    Thank you for providing me w/many laughs last night. I very much enjoyed myself.

  4. #379
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Skaters, 99.9 percent, will never be able to do 4 revolution jumps even when they train all their lives.
    Your stats are WAY off. Of the 24 men who skated the FS at 2010 Worlds, 10 attempted quads---and some of the 10 men landed more than one quad. That's 41.6%. And there are other men who didn't go to Worlds who have landed quads.

    At NHK, 15-year-old Yuzuru Hanyu landed a beautiful, clean quad in his first attempt.
    Last edited by chuckm; 10-31-2010 at 04:28 PM.

  5. #380
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ Even so, I think Wally's stats are correct. 99.9% of all skaters never make it to worlds.

  6. #381
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post

    Oh and one more thing...I've noticed that most of the posters who are going on...and on...and on...and ON are fans of a certain skater. A certain skater who we all had to put up w/winning events he really had no business winning. Who didn't even have a thimble of the talent Patrick and Adam both posess in spades. Of that certain skater boasting about how great he was when no, he really wasn't, but we had to listen to him and his fans gush ad nauseam and rub in our faces.

    Sucks to be on the other side, don't it?
    Out of curiosity, which skater were you referring to?

    Don't you think it's possible that some posters could be genuinely opposed to the scoring of the event in principle, rather than merely acting out of misguided fannish posturing?

  7. #382
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post
    I would like to thank all of you for making my Birthday yesterday. Really, I'm not kidding about that.
    :happybday: Happy Birthday.

  8. #383
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    IJS is soo not subjective. Not when the judge still gets to decide to give one person a 9 for P/E execution and another person a 7. Not when the judge gets to decide to give one person Plus 2 GOE for their jump and another 0 GOE for their jump. Pleeease at the concept that IJS is objective.
    And what ticks me off is that IJS clearly doesn't punish people very hard for major mistakes. You want to mention gymnastics, well as far as I'm concerned gymnastics as a sport is in much better shape. Yes there are issues and subjectivity. But the gymnasts still have to deliver. He Kexin is the best bar worker in the world-by far. But when He Kexin fell on bars at event finals-He Kexin LOST. It didn't matter that He Kexin has this wonderful high release. It didn't matter that she had this great form. She didn't deliver she lost.

    In gymnastics the only way gymnasts can make up for major mistakes is if they have this HUGE difficulty, and also if their competitors have these huge major issues of their own. Its not because someone has a nice toe point on bars, or a nice swing for example. There are issues in the sport, but the scoring makes FAR more sense. Than the scoring of Patrick Chan's SP.

    This whole thing is turning me of from the sport because its freaking clear that actual execution of your programs doesn't even matter in figure skating.

    Laughing at the concept of major glaring errors being punished in skating when fall on a rotated quad- SIX POINTS.
    Gymnastics is not a good example at the moment. There is much debate over the recent win of Lauren Mitchell. She won the floor event final based on a high difficulty score but lower execution. She beat gymnasts with lower scores but better execution. Is that not exactly what many are arguing against here?

    The point about He Kexin losing is not quite the same as Patrick winning here. She lost in the Bars final, one part of the competition. The more relevant comparison would be to compare the Bars final with the short program, which Patrick (overscored - I'll agree there) didn't win. If He Kexin was competing AA, she still had a chance (small) to win it all and it's possible that she could have. Patrick won the competition based on a crappy program and a brilliant program (even with one fall).

    Honestly, people seem to change their minds about what they want over and over again. Some want to see perfect programs, some want to see quads, some want to see difficulty, some want artistry and some want it all. And next week, they'll be arguing against whatever they wanted last week. Gah skating fans!!!

  9. #384
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Out of curiosity, which skater were you referring to?

    Don't you think it's possible that some posters could be genuinely opposed to the scoring of the event in principle, rather than merely acting out of misguided fannish posturing?
    Precisely!

  10. #385
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline
    Out of curiosity, which skater were you referring to?
    The most popular male skater on Golden Skate Is Alexei Yagudin. (We had a poll. )

  11. #386
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    The most popular male skater on Golden Skate Is Alexei Yagudin. (We had a poll. )
    it was rigged! the judging corrupt! Kurt Browning is the best! If only I could have afforded the going rate to pay off the pollsters to agree with me!

  12. #387
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    The judging the way it is now will hurt skating's popularity.
    I am not a skater, just a couch potato. Here is what I notice
    1. Falling. If you fall, it's very noticeable. Also step outs, hands down and wobbly landings are noticeable.
    2. Speed of the skater.
    3. If the costume and music are nice. (Subjective to the nth degree, of course)
    4. General gracefulness and line.
    5. Anything unique and different like Adam's lutz, or Phillippe Candoloro's sword fight.
    What a couch potato like myself cannot see on television is:
    1. Underrotations. You can't really tell unless they show it in slo-mo.
    2. Flutzing. This you cannot see at all without slow-mo.
    3. Depth of edge. I'm not even sure what this is.

    There are two major problems here, with the scoring system. When a skater makes a "visible" mistake or three, but beats someone who made an "invisible" mistake (like flutzing)the viewing audience will be disgusted and tune out. This sport exists as entertainment, as do all sports. If it's no longer entertaining because fallers beat flutzers, and people see a beautiful program lose because of teeny-tiny picky things, they will stop watching. And a spectator sport that is not watched is not guaranteed to exist.

    The other problem is that the PCS seems to judge the program more than the skating. And if skaters skate the same program all season--and basically get the same scores for that program--if you have a very small downgrade for falling/mistakes, you have basically set it up so that certain skaters will be unbeatable. If Skater A always gets 4 points higher with her program than Skater B in the program components, and she falls only 3 times, and a fall is a one point deduction, then Skater B can't beat her. No matter how well she does that night.

    That may be realistic--maybe Skater A always has a better line and better edges--but it is no longer a sport. As one writer said, baseball players aren't automatically waved to first because it's recognized they are the best. They have to actually get a hit.

    Patrick is a great skater, and when he's on I bet he's fantastic. But I am sick of him falling and winding up ahead of those who remain upright.

  13. #388
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    Honestly, people seem to change their minds about what they want over and over again. Some want to see perfect programs, some want to see quads, some want to see difficulty, some want artistry and some want it all. And next week, they'll be arguing against whatever they wanted last week. Gah skating fans!!!
    ISU keeps changing the rules such that one problem is solved and another is created. It's like they don't understand the necessary balance between everything and the history of the sport.

  14. #389
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
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    So true....

  15. #390
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    Quote Originally Posted by chuckm View Post
    Your stats are WAY off. Of the 24 men who skated the FS at 2010 Worlds, 10 attempted quads---and some of the 10 men landed more than one quad. That's 41.6%. And there are other men who didn't go to Worlds who have landed quads.

    At NHK, 15-year-old Yuzuru Hanyu landed a beautiful, clean quad in his first attempt.
    Skaters who get to participate in the World Championship is a very small minority of all skaters in the world. Because you don't see them on tv doesn't mean they don't exist.

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