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Thread: Men - Free program

  1. #391
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    Gymnastics is not a good example at the moment. There is much debate over the recent win of Lauren Mitchell. She won the floor event final based on a high difficulty score but lower execution. She beat gymnasts with lower scores but better execution. Is that not exactly what many are arguing against here?

    The point about He Kexin losing is not quite the same as Patrick winning here. She lost in the Bars final, one part of the competition. The more relevant comparison would be to compare the Bars final with the short program, which Patrick (overscored - I'll agree there) didn't win. If He Kexin was competing AA, she still had a chance (small) to win it all and it's possible that she could have. Patrick won the competition based on a crappy program and a brilliant program (even with one fall).

    Honestly, people seem to change their minds about what they want over and over again. Some want to see perfect programs, some want to see quads, some want to see difficulty, some want artistry and some want it all. And next week, they'll be arguing against whatever they wanted last week. Gah skating fans!!!
    Hi,

    I just noticed that your handle is similar to mine. What a coincident.

  2. #392
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatingbc View Post
    Gymnastics is not a good example at the moment. There is much debate over the recent win of Lauren Mitchell. She won the floor event final based on a high difficulty score but lower execution. She beat gymnasts with lower scores but better execution. Is that not exactly what many are arguing against here?
    Oh please first of all may I point that I never said that I want perfect execution to win out alone. I'm willing to let a program of harder difficulty and a minor error to win out over a program with easier compenents and a little less error. But it seriously its not like Lauren had major stumbles, or glaring errors in her free programs. She had a few minor problems. Its a subjective sport and so yes its hard to know who completely deserved to win, but to compare Patrick and Lauren's win is ridiculous.

    The point about He Kexin losing is not quite the same as Patrick winning here. She lost in the Bars final, one part of the competition. The more relevant comparison would be to compare the Bars final with the short program, which Patrick (overscored - I'll agree there) didn't win. If He Kexin was competing AA, she still had a chance (small) to win it all and it's possible that she could have. Patrick won the competition based on a crappy program and a brilliant program (even with one fall).
    Seriously? First of all Patrick won by less than five points. So if the boy wasn't overscored in the short program he wouldn't have won. May I point out to you that Patrick's crappy skate got only 3 points less than Adam Rippons wonderful skate in the short program.
    Honestly, people seem to change their minds about what they want over and over again. Some want to see perfect programs, some want to see quads, some want to see difficulty, some want artistry and some want it all. And next week, they'll be arguing against whatever they wanted last week. Gah skating fans!!!
    I haven't changed my mind in what I've wanted from this sport. I've been complaining for years that messy programs are rewarded to much and that the quad isn't reward enough. So what I wanted as a fan was for a cleanly landed quad to be worth more points, but also wanted to see a fall on a messed up quad heavily penalized. That's not asking to much as a fan.

    All I want as a fan of the sport is to see that the actual skate a skater puts out matters. I'm starting to hate PCS because its clear that the actual skate doesn't matter. That's the program and the evualation of the skaters skills a long time ago that matters. And so Daisuke Takahashi can fall 3 times at NHK last year, and still get the highest PCS of the night.

    All I want from this sport is that Laura Lepisto can't beat a skater like Cynthia Phaneuf when Cynthia lands triples and Laura lands doubles.

    And I'll say this, I'm fine with a high quality skater making one major mistake, and maybe two minor mistakes and still winning due to the quality of his skate. I've got no issues with Patrick Chan winning the free program. I've got no issue with Daisuke Takahashi's bronze at the Olympics the rest of his skate was great). I don't want this to be just a jump contest.

    But when we start bordering on heavily messy with multiple falls and stumbles, And I see huge scores for these skates, as a fan of this sport I get angry. Its not what I want to see and there's no rule book that Wally lutz or anyone can show me that can convince me that this is a fair system.

  3. #393
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    I see the Mens FP is no longer locked like it was earlier today, thus I copy & paste my comments from the Mens SP (put it in its proper place):




    Oops, have to post my Mens LP thoughts here, as the official thread is now closed: (8^o


    Don't have time to read all 26 pages of this thread, but wanted to add my own, lol, as I just now watched the Mens Lps on IN: And here are my thoughts:

    Kevin Reynolds could have easily won this competition hands down, that was the huge disappointment for me personally as a fan of his. :( Oddly, the same thing happened to him at 2010 4CC, where he was the leader after the SP (here he almost tied for the lead with Oda). And he said the reason why he fell apart in the LP at 4CC was because he wasn't used to being in the lead. Well, Kev, you better get used to being in the lead here on in with those two quads you have in the SP & the two in the LP, nobody else but you does it! *clapping* I think you worked so much this past summer on being the first man in history to land two quads in the SP (which you did, yeah!), that you let slide your other jumps, namely the 3A. Once you land everything you have planned you'll dominate!!!!! My God, I can't believe how far you've come in one year -- your SP was great, but your LP was phenomenal! Loved every beautiful second of it...like a dream your choreography & execution...long beautiful classical lines, spiral into 3T gorgeous, every element flowed from one to the other, it was over way too soon, and that's the truth. I could've watched you all day long. Ah....

    Adam Rippon was my second favorite program. Beautiful classical skater in the same vein as John Curry. Loved the whole thing ~ music, choreography, skater, program, et al ~ only thing I was disappointed in was the shaky landings on some of his jumps, and most importantly no quad. This entire competition was a definite wake-up call for both you & your coach. Without the quad, you can't win unless those that quad fall, and that's not the way to win. And you won't settle for anything less, as it should be.

    Patrick Chan was a delight as well! He reminds me of Adam Rippon in not only body type but classical style as well, and lol both had shaky landings on their jumps in the FS. Except Patrick has now joined the elite ~ he quads!!!!! *clapping* Because he nows quads, his skating just went up a notch, and that means he's a danger to everybody else out there. That said, the fall here, but especially the 3 falls in the SP leaves me uneasy. Yes, he definitely deserved to medal, but I'm not sure what color, yet. Then again, those above him threw the competition away with their own faults, especially Kevin Reynolds, who could've easily won this competition if he had landed everything he planned. Therefore, I'm not really outraged, it's not the Olympics after all. That's a whole other ballgame. I honestly cannot remember a skater that has ever won the gold with a fall in either the SP or especially the LP. Now that would be a true outrage, which is the reason why Daisuke Takahashi rightfully finished in 3rd at the 2010 Olympics, because of the fall on the quad.

    Nobunari Oda's FS was a bit of a letdown for me, actually a huge letdown, I expected more from him in terms of choreography, et al. The SP was such a masterpiece, which makes it all the more painful to see his LP. No choreography, no beginning/middle/ending, no nothing. I didn't like it at all, unfortunately, because I really like Nobunari himself. And he threw away what little lead he had after the SP when he fell in the LP. Better luck next time, warlord!

    That's it, nobody else impressed me in the FS, just the aforementioned top dogs.

  4. #394
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tigger View Post

    Reading all of the hysterical postings in here, and I do mean hysterical, has been most entertaining. Dear Lord on High...This is only a sport. A game. But the way some of you are going on, you'd think it was life or death.
    But this kind of judging is not fair to the skaters who work their butt off everyday. I wonder which male skater would like to participate Skate Chanada next season, because it is obvious that the judges will favour Chan so much, it's a waste of time for the others to even participate. I am still shocked of the results of the SP!

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by glam View Post
    But this kind of judging is not fair to the skaters who work their butt off everyday. I wonder which male skater would like to participate Skate Chanada next season, because it is obvious that the judges will favour Chan so much, it's a waste of time for the others to even participate. I am still shocked of the results of the SP!
    I beg to disagree. It's absolutely fair because the scores reward the talent level of the different skaters. Cream rises to the top and the best skaters win the various competitions. Virtually all of them work their butts off every day. Doesn't mean they're working wisely and working on the elements that will get them the best scores. They can watch a virtuoso skater like Patrick Chan and see his beautiful edges and his speed and his intricate choreography and his footwork and his transitions and they can aspire to skate as well as him. A skater like Kevin Reynolds may have the ability and the physique to excel at performing quadruple jumps but anyone who thinks he's as good a skater as Patrick Chan doesn't know very much about figure skating. I think anybody in the stands or watching tv can understand the scoring system and ascertain why even at his best he doesn't begin to measure up to Chan and the other top notch skaters.

  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickle View Post
    I think anybody in the stands or watching tv can understand the scoring system and ascertain why even at his best he doesn't begin to measure up to Chan and the other top notch skaters.
    Well, to me Kevin Reynolds at his best measures up to Chan who falls multiple times in his programs.

  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickle View Post
    I beg to disagree. It's absolutely fair because the scores reward the talent level of the different skaters.
    The scores should reflect the skater's performance, not his latent talent.

  8. #398
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by stickle
    I beg to disagree. It's absolutely fair because the scores reward the talent level of the different skaters.
    And who determines who is more talented than who? I don't want the most talented skater to win, I want the person who skates the best in the competition to win. That's what makes it a competition. Part of the fun of what made Yagudin so great to watch in the past was the fact that Yagudin would DELIVER in crunch time. Its what made Michelle Kwan great, and Tara Lipinski great.

    That's the fun of watching golf for me, to see who stands up to the pressure and deliver and who doesn't. If its just about the most talented golfer winning, than they shouldn't even bother to have a golf competition because we know that's Tiger. But what makes Tiger so great is Tiger-actually has to deliver on his talent. Otherwise he loses.

    If Chan can have a 3fall lead over good skaters like Adam and Oda, than this isn't a competition-its a beauty contest.

  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    And who determines who is more talented than who? I don't want the most talented skater to win, I want the person who skates the best in the competition to win.
    Absolutely. The winner should be the one who skates the best, not the one who is the most talented.

    But PCS aside, how should we value the various elements? That's the subjective part. Some people, like me, believe a quad, as long as it is a quad in terms of rotation, should be sufficiently rewarded to justify attempting it in the first place as opposed to a safer jump, fall or not (eg 2A in Blades of Passion's example). It takes a certain amount of talent and hard work to even have a chance of landing it successfully, which is why I'd rather try and encourage skaters to go for broke rather than play safe. Heavy penalties will inevitably result in risk-averse behaviour. Others, like Mathman, think otherwise and that a fall must be penalized sufficiently harshly to stop skaters from jumping and falling anyway because they will still get more points (eg Jeff Buttle). So how much should we value a fall on any jump? 0? 25%? 50%? How much is too much?

    It all boils down to how badly we think skaters should be penalized for poor execution of any element (eg wrong edge, step out, fall, wobbles etc). Should we have a mandatory -3 deduction for wrong edge take off because by default, the skater is not even doing the correct jump per se? Maybe. It all depends on your personal take. I don't think there's a definite answer. Which makes this debate a lot of fun. (:

    I really wouldn't call it a beauty contest (please Chan is certainly not handsome) or even a rigged one, going by TES alone. The judges did score him according to the rules and all the skaters are aware of exactly how much each element is valued. Same thing with Lepisto and her double jumps. PCS is another matter but for what it's worth, personally I didn't think the falls affected his performance that much. He certainly didn't skate around for ages like a deer caught in headlights. Got straight back into the programme, transitions and all. That is my personal opinion, so feel free to disagree.

  10. #400
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    And who determines who is more talented than who? I don't want the most talented skater to win, I want the person who skates the best in the competition to win. That's what makes it a competition. Part of the fun of what made Yagudin so great to watch in the past was the fact that Yagudin would DELIVER in crunch time. Its what made Michelle Kwan great, and Tara Lipinski great.


    If Chan can have a 3fall lead over good skaters like Adam and Oda, than this isn't a competition-its a beauty contest.
    Thank you so much, You put the word out of my mouth

  11. #401
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    Hmmm. In his two SC skates, Chan attempted two quads, fell on one and landed the other. That's a 50% success rate. He attempted three 3As, fell on two and the one he landed in the FS was wonky. That's a 33% success rate. Many of his easier jumps in the FS had wonky landings also. Maybe he should take a cue from Kostner and stick to the easier jumps and focus on performance so that his 'Phantom' has some character.

    Somehow, I don't think the judges are going to be so anxious to "give me the marks" (in Chan's words) if he skates the same way in Russia.

  12. #402
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    I can't believe my eyes that Patrick Chan had the guts to actually go on and do a beautiful quad! He even went on and put quad in both SP and LP! Good for him! It at least softened a little for his usual cocky attitude.

    It was so unfortunate that he got the fourth place with 3 hard falls in SP which enabled him to win. It was not Skate Canada's fault. A group of international judges gave it to him. I just don't understand the bitterness so many posters here have towards Canada.

    Of these two past GP events for men, NHK was artistic at it's best, while Skate Canada was a power house. Can't you believe it that the power house in Canada?

  13. #403
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    nice job from patrick, nice of quad
    adam-nice job
    nobunari-nice job
    javier-good program.

  14. #404
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    Home field advantage is not just a myth, and it happens at every event.

    Would Tim Goebel have even been close to Plushenko at 2003 Worlds if it were held in Moscow instead of Washington?

    Would Stefan Lindemann have a world bronze if worlds weren't in Germany?

    Would a lot of US ice dance teams of the dim past medal in a GP other than Skate America?

    Very unlikely.

    One should never forget that international judges are people. They are part of the audience. When everyone around is rising, clapping and shouting, "Bravo," it is only human to want to join in.

    And a skater or team often puts on either their very best or very worst performances at home, in front of friends and family. It is a unique situation.

    And so it often happens that skaters get uncharacteristically high marks for themselves at home. They skate better, the audience responds uproariously to the home town hero, the judges fear to be lynched, and the scores come rolling up.

    Everywhere. Not just in Canada.

    Perhaps they should isolate the judges in a soundproof booth from the audience The music would be piped in. That might help.

    However, Skate Canada does have one systemic problem that some of the other federations don't have. For whatever reason, the field of non-Canadians in Canada often seems weak. I invite the comments of Canadians on why this is so.

    One thing is that the very first competition of the season is usually loaded with talent. It used to be Skate America, but this year was NHK. None of these people will want to fly from Japan to Canada to compete again. They will want to wait a few weeks to recuperate. Consequently, we do not see any NHK entrants at SC. Prior to this last couple years, SA was always held first, SC was always second on the schedule, and the result was a weaker field at SC.

    Next year SC should have to go first. Perhaps we would see a different class of competitors here.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-01-2010 at 11:41 AM.

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    So what I wanted as a fan was for a cleanly landed quad to be worth more points, but also wanted to see a fall on a messed up quad heavily penalized. That's not asking to much as a fan.
    What should be worth more, ... a fall on a quad with good rotation, or a clean triple?

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