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Thread: I used to love the COP

  1. #1
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    I used to love the COP

    But now I have to join those who think they should consider going back to the 6.0.

    I am not as obsessed by or knowledgeable about skating as some on this board, so forgive me if I get some dates wrong, etc. But I am a dedicated fan, and I'm getting disgusted.

    When they switched over to the COP, a lot of people complained and still are complaining about the loss of creativity that occurred when points needed to be added up. A lot of people complained that without a top number to aspire to, like the iconic 6.0, casual tv fans would be turned off. Both of these are valid points, and both probably did happen to some extent. But the fairness of the COP seemed to trump those concerns. I remember how exciting it was the first time someone ( Tatiana,the skater from UZB, iirc) came from 7th to win a competition, something that was impossible the old way. I remember how exciting it was that an unknown like Brandon Mroz could beat Johnny and Evan at the US Nationals. And remember when then-unknown Jeremy Abbott won the Grand Prix, or when Emmanuel Sandhu beat Evgeni Plushenko (which I missed because the DOHS was giving some kind of briefing and interrrupted the broadcast ) I liked the fact that the unknown skaters would have a chance they wouldn't before, because the anointed ones wouldn't be held up.

    Well, that was then and this is now. So far, I have seen someone land (what even a non-skater like me knows) is the easiest combination and win the short program. That was annoying enough--obviously Carolina was being held up because she's a former world medalist, and Rachael and the young girl from Japan are not. But it wasn't too egregious. But then I saw Patrick Chan at Skate Canada.

    I've had it. Obviously 7 years into the COP, the judges have found a way to hold people up/keep people down through grade of execution and program components scores. It's as unfair now as it ever was. No, it's probably worse. I remember people complaining about Sarah Hughes, saying her short program was overmarked based on some minor mistake that a layman like myself couldn't see (flutzing? underrotation?) and saying that under the code of points, she would have been behind someone who was more worthy ("woman among girls", I think.)

    No. If they decided they liked her, she could have fallen three times, once not even on a jump, and she'd still be within striking distance of a medal.

    The scoring system is completely messed up. It seems like the stuff the judges are saying is important is invisible to us regular folks. We can't tell if someone flutzes or underrotates, and if they do, it doesn't affect the quality of the overall performance. We can tell if someone is more graceful than another, but deep edges? Can't really see them. But we can tell if someone splats on the ice, and if they win based on doing well on the less-visible stuff, well, the sport's in trouble.

    So bring back 6.0. At least you got those cute flag icons.

  2. #2
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    ITA with everything you said!

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    I do not want to return to the cop but the Isu should consider to eliminate the Skate Canada and take it to another country (korea, Italy.... ).
    It is a shame for the fans and a disrespect of the rest of skaters, to help up the Canadian skaters of such a clear form.

    PS: I know that in all the competitions there is nationalistic slant but in the SC it rubs the ridiculous .

  4. #4
    More or less: more is more sequinsgalore's Avatar
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    I agree that the Canadians (mostly Chan) tend to get very generous scores at Skate Canada. Do anyone know what the skaters and audience thought of the scores? Just curious...

    Luckily Cup of China is the next GP, and here we usually don't see the home faves get unusually high scores.

  5. #5
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    6.0 is not coming back. They won't go BACK to anything, which is why they continue to tweak the IJS/COP/current system.

    I may not like Chan's score, but it is one event, and yes it's frustrating that Chan seems to be forgiven for every mistake, but it's not Canada's fault. Skate America sees the American/North American teams get a boost, and it wasn't too long ago that everyone was on the hate Russia campaign. Now that Russian skating is rebuilding its team, we aren't seeing those "evil euro block judging" remarks... now it's the north american block. It's all in a cycle. And it's what the sport was well before the newest judging system came into power.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    6.0 is not coming back. They won't go BACK to anything, which is why they continue to tweak the IJS/COP/current system.

    I may not like Chan's score, but it is one event
    Do you think he will be judged differently as competitions outside of Canada?

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    Quote Originally Posted by krenseby View Post
    Do you think he will be judged differently as competitions outside of Canada?
    I think he'll be up against stronger fields at more of his competitions outside Canada. But I think he will continue to score very well on PCS regardless of the location of the competition, because he is one of the very best in areas like Skating Skills and Transitions, and that will give him a cushion to be able to afford mistakes on a few elements that skaters who are just good but not that good can't afford.

  8. #8
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    I wish I understood better the claim that international judging panels score skaters higher on their home ice.

    I do not see any reason why a judge from Uzbekistan would be motivated to give high marks to Cynthia Phaneuf skating in Canada and low marks to Cynthia Phaneuf skating in Japan.

    (Empirically, however, I can't help noticing that Alissa Czisny always does great in Canada. )

  9. #9
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    I think he'll be up against stronger fields at more of his competitions outside Canada. But I think he will continue to score very well on PCS regardless of the location of the competition, because he is one of the very best in areas like Skating Skills and Transitions, and that will give him a cushion to be able to afford mistakes on a few elements that skaters who are just good but not that good can't afford.
    +3

  10. #10
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    (Empirically, however, I can't help noticing that Alissa Czisny always does great in Canada. )
    Really? What happened to her in the Pacific Coliseum at the 2009 4CC then?

  11. #11
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    I do not think the CoP will be discarded. For one thing, it has cut down on the ability to cheat as much as the 6.0 system although part of the CoP are wide open for cheating. Those GoEs tack-ons, both minus and positive, are not basically based on talent but are based very much on personal tastes. For the most part they belong in the PC scores.

    What the present CoP system needs now is a re-study to answer the question, Are we making the right scoring decisions to show the best skaters/teams on that Day/Night?,


    The present scoring system, is too much nitty gritty, especially with the partial credits which are thrown around. Some get partial credit;some do not. The scoring would best be served by using the the Definition of an element. All elements have definitions.

    Two hands up-in-the-air on a triple lutz should get a WOW score in the PC second part of scoring. A skater with many WOWs should be rewarded somehow to reflect the interpretation of his routine. Falls, unfortunately, do not show much skating skills. No?

    Indeed the CoP needs work!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I do not think the CoP will be discarded. For one thing, it has cut down on the ability to cheat as much as the 6.0 system although part of the CoP are wide open for cheating. Those GoEs tack-ons, both minus and positive, are not basically based on talent but are based very much on personal tastes. For the most part they belong in the PC scores.

    Two hands up-in-the-air on a triple lutz should get a WOW score in the PC second part of scoring. A skater with many WOWs should be rewarded somehow to reflect the interpretation of his routine.
    I actually disagree with this completely. Rewarding something like the Rippon lutz variation on GOE seems correct to me, because it puts the center of gravity much higher, which increases the level of difficulty - it's like doing a double axel out of an ina bauer, it's something that makes the jump harder on an athletic level.

    Now, if these kind of moves are appropriate to the "look" of a program, or help convey something that's going on in the music when they happen, that should be taken into consideration under the choreography or interpretation marks for components, or transitions if a skater has lots of moves into jumps. But it's just as possible that those difficult variations or entries add nothing to a program, or even work against it, because they work against the "look" of a program or the music.

    Rippon's lutz is sometimes like that, in my opinion. He's a very balletic, fluid, graceful skater, but his arm variation is almost violently aggressive, the way the arms are thrust straight up and clasped together in an (ugly, imo) double fist. Sometimes, it just doesn't really add much to the interpretation, given the kind of programs he likes to skate. But it's still a technically, athletically harder way to execute a triple lutz, and he should be rewarded for that regardless of the artistic impact - in the technical mark for that jump!

    Now, some of the GOE criteria for jumps, like "effortless throughout" - yeah, that's meaningless, it's a fudge factor.

  13. #13
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Rippon's lutz is sometimes like that, in my opinion. He's a very balletic, fluid, graceful skater, but his arm variation is almost violently aggressive, the way the arms are thrust straight up and clasped together in an (ugly, imo) double fist. Sometimes, it just doesn't really add much to the interpretation, given the kind of programs he likes to skate.
    Thank you! I thought I was the only one who thought that. It's amazing, stupendous, colossal that Adam can do a jump like that.

    But I wish he wouldn't.

  14. #14
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    I think the two hands are less awkard looking than the one hand tano... which seems to just wave wildly above the head.

  15. #15
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    ^ I reserve the right to disagree, and offer the following in support of my position:

    http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:L...oSP-728079.jpg

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