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Thread: I used to love the COP

  1. #151
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phoenix347 View Post
    Is this a true story??
    No. Sorry. I was trying to make a joke, based on the suggestion that you shouldn't get credit for a jump if you fall at the end.

  2. #152
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I'm of the same opinion as Stephane. The idea of attaining the highest levels (4 on all elements) is mainly what has stripped figure skating of its freedom and beauty. It has forced the skaters to compromise quality for quantity, which is a real shame. COP would allow skaters more time to breathe and express their programs choreographically if they were not having to try and achieve a level 4 on everything. I vote to do away with the levels component of COP. BTW, these 2 are just so precious . . . I so love both Stephane and Shizuka, two beautiful and admirable ambassadors of this sport!
    I really don't think this is fair at all. Over a decade of watching skaters (most particularly the men) who could not spin, whose MITF were perfunctory, and whose footwork was effectively non-existent, was more than enough for me. Actually, I think assigning levels to elements has done more to advance the actual sport than anything that's happened since the removal of school figures. Maybe even more than figures as a part of competition, just because of the shenanigans in how they were judged. I have seen some dubious level calls on elements with skaters getting higher than I thought they should, but that's extremely rare, and it's mostly just a flaw in how the criteria are constructed.

    Most fans of skating who're more than once-every-four-years viewers have no problem accepting that there's a range of difficulty between the different jumps, and that difficulty should be rewarded. Just look at all the fights over Laura Lepisto. Why should non-jump elements be any different? If you take out the levels, what you get is a race to the bottom in terms of quality on those elements, where everyone does the bare minimum possible on the required elements, and no more, because doing better gets a skater very little reward for the effort.

    It's a sport, for crying out loud. Objectively identifying and qualifying the elements a skater performs in a given program is probably the one innovation of COP that needs to stay in place. GOE could stand to be reworked, PCS badly needs an overhaul, but levels and the tech panel are wonderful. There was just as much choreographic mediocrity and moves done for the sake of satisfying the requirements under 6.0, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves. The difference is that under 6.0, skaters have overall been forced to become better at those elements. People joke about how Evan won the Olympics on the strength of his spins, and you know what? It's true, and that's actually a good thing for the sport. Take that away, and you do not get a field of Yagudins, you get a field of Stojko clones, with one or two Yagudins in the mix. Same as it's ever been.

  3. #153
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    ^ I see it more in terms of Angela Nikodinov's classic 6.0 style layback vs. Sasha Cohen's I-spin. To me, Nikodinov's spin is far and away more beautiful because of its simplicity and purity. Cohen's spin is sheerly done to earn points because flexibility is viewed as difficult and a way to gain high levels in COP, but I don't find that spin beautiful at all. It's just plain ugly . . . the shoot the beaver spin should be banned permanently. I love what COP did for footwork sequences, but I abhor what it did to spins and spirals.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 11-04-2010 at 07:54 PM.

  4. #154
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    When I watch videos under the 6.0 era, I see skaters holding their spins for 3 slow revolutions and then ending them. Or the 1 second spiral. Or the really easy footwork.

    There's simple and elegant, and then there's simple because you have no incentive and get no reward for making it any better. We saw too much of the second under 6.0.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    ^ I see it more in terms of Angela Nikodinov's classic 6.0 style layback vs. Sasha Cohen's I-spin. To me, Nikodinov's spin is far and away more beautiful because of its simplicity and purity. Cohen's spin is sheerly done to earn points because flexibility is viewed as difficult and a way to gain high levels in COP, but I don't find that spin beautiful at all. It's just plain ugly . . . the shoot the beaver spin should be banned permanently.
    But that's a problem with the way the code is constructed, not the concept of levels and objective ranking of elements. I don't think flexibility should be as valued as high as it is now, because it has nothing to do with actual skating. The features should be things like change of edge, change of foot, jumps within spins, ability to spin in both directions, etc. But at the same time, I think women who have weak layback positions or can't do Biellmann's shouldn't be penalized for that, either, as long as the quality of spinning (speed, centering, maintaining the position, etc) are there.

    If two skaters do a layback that's as pretty as Angela Nikodinov's, but one gets it centered faster, and then does change of foot and changes spinning direction at the same time, she should get more points for it. That's what you're taking away when you take away levels.

    It's not a beauty contest. It's a skating contest.

  6. #156
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    It's not a beauty contest. It's a skating contest.
    If you take the beauty out of skating, then it becomes very boring.

  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    If you take the beauty out of skating, then it becomes very boring.
    If you don't find the actual sport of skating beautiful in and of itself (ignoring all the post-figures jumping beans who could not actually skate), why are you watching in the first place? There are beauty contests, there are pure forms of dance, etc etc. Well-executed skating, blades-on-ice skating, is beautiful.

  8. #158
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    At least we can say this, that Lambiel himself is a poster child for his point of view. His 6.0 spins were astonishing. When he tried to adapt them to CoP requirements they lost their one-of-a-kind splendor.

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    Pretty much all of Lambiel's significant victories came under some variant of COP, though, so I'm not sure how true that is. I don't think if 6.0 had stayed in place, that he would have had the same degree of success. I think Joubert would have done much better, and Lambiel considerably worse. His spins might have been better, but I don't think he would have been rewarded for them (or his footwork) in the same way.

  10. #160
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    If you don't find the actual sport of skating beautiful in and of itself (ignoring all the post-figures jumping beans who could not actually skate), why are you watching in the first place? There are beauty contests, there are pure forms of dance, etc etc. Well-executed skating, blades-on-ice skating, is beautiful.
    Because there are elements besides the aspects you listed that are beautiful and unique about figure skating and has been there since the sport started. Just because you find certain aspects beautiful doesn't mean everyone who enjoys skating thinks that way.

  11. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by miki88 View Post
    Because there are elements besides the aspects you listed that are beautiful and unique about figure skating and has been there since the sport started. Just because you find certain aspects beautiful doesn't mean everyone who enjoys skating thinks that way.
    Like what, hyperflexibility in spiral or spin positions? The ability to jump and rotate in the air, without a good take-off or landing edge? Choppy basic skating without any edges at all while being physically attractive? Doing any skating move while exceptionally physically attractive?

  12. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    About partial credit for falling on a quad, I think I have found the correct sister-sport analogy -- trapeze.

    The flier completed four somersaults in the air, before falling fifty feet to his death. (He got silver posthumously.)

    I love your witty sense of humour, Mathman, the aforementioned had me in stitches yesterday, I honestly couldn't stop laughing.

    Which I really needed at the time after recalling how I felt about Zhenya's loss at the Olympics. Thanks for the laughs!

  13. #163
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Over a decade of watching skaters (most particularly the men) who could not spin, whose MITF were perfunctory, and whose footwork was effectively non-existent, was more than enough for me. Actually, I think assigning levels to elements has done more to advance the actual sport than anything that's happened since the removal of school figures.
    To advance the TECHNICAL side of the sport, yes. Not the artistic side. Figure skating is both. Increasing technical and decreasing artistic doesn't mean you've gained anything overall. In fact, to many people it means you've LOST something, since the artistic mark was supposed to be the "tiebreaker".

    Anyway, the debate is too limited to 6.0 vs CoP. What people should be talking about is how CoP needs to be improved. There needs to be more freedom, certainly. Look at how Lambiel and Shizuka, and pretty much any other top skater, is overwhelmingly in favor. And look at how Lambiel and Shizuka laugh at their own idea when they say "maybe we should tell the ISU and get it fixed." It's seriously disgraceful how sluggish the ISU is with responding and adapting. Even two of the most renowned skaters out there know they don't have much sway over influencing the awful leadership within ISU.

  14. #164
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Pretty much all of Lambiel's significant victories came under some variant of COP, though,...
    Victories, schmictories. Here is Stephane's all-time greatest performance, wide-swinging jump landings, level 2 spins and all, good for fourth place.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zRQVeaD2iu8

    Well-executed skating, blades-on-ice skating, is beautiful.
    True, but harder is not necessarily more beautiful.

    I think one of the problems is that only skating experts can actually see things like changes of edges during spins, or can tell the difference between a Mohawk and a Choctaw. (GKelly once posted a "you be the judge" video about footwork, challenging us to identify as many steps and turns as we could. I got one right out of thirteen -- a twizzle. )

    So what is beautiful to an expert is way over the head of 99 per cent of the audience.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-04-2010 at 09:05 PM.

  15. #165
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    Well as for the change of edges, I can point out that Moskvina's husband asked what change of edges traditionally have to do with spinning. I remember Lambiel's fast well centered spins were breathtaking under 6.0.

    They can easily reward spins, by having the judges grant points to the spins, with guidelines. Than the judges could look at beauty and difficulty. But also allowing frankly for at least more originality in the spins. We don't see a lot of original moves now.

    Also I was thinking earlier about how new technical stuff isn't done anymore. What if a guy could do something like a four jump combo, but we will never see it.

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