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Thread: I used to love the COP

  1. #16
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    Since the judges use the PCS scores as place-holders and to hold skaters up, they may as well go back to 6.0 for the second mark. I seriously doubt that the judges are parsing out all of the elements of PCS now anyway. They are just figuring that someone like Rachael Flatt should be somewhere in the 6's, while Yu Na should be in the 8's. In fact, now that I think of it, they should just make the overall PCS score the decimal in a 6.0 score. 5.85 for Yu Na, 5.75 for someone like Alissa (though she probably deserves more) and 5.6 for Rachael.
    Last edited by jenaj; 10-31-2010 at 04:56 PM.

  2. #17
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Thank you! I thought I was the only one who thought that. It's amazing, stupendous, colossal that Adam can do a jump like that.

    But I wish he wouldn't.
    I like skaters that show something different. I like the Rippon jumps and they must be quite difficult or else we would see more skaters doing them. Is anyone else doing 'tano triple jumps?

  3. #18
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    It's nice that the jump has become a trademark for him but I don't think it is especially great technically. He jumps small, lands a bit short, and doesn't have beautiful outflow. Yeah, the air position is extremely difficult, but it's not one of the best Lutzes out there. I'd give +1 GOE for his best efforts at it and +0 for the times when the rotation and outflow (and even straightness of air position) have been clearly compromised.

  4. #19
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I like skaters that show something different. I like the Rippon jumps and they must be quite difficult or else we would see more skaters doing them. Is anyone else doing 'tano triple jumps?
    I am not necessarily a fan of difficulty for difficulty’s sake. As Doubleflutz wrote wrote, an extra feature which adds difficulty but does not support the choreography or interpretive theme is a mixed blessing.

    What was so compelling about Janet Lynn’s performances was that the technical elements were woven into the warp and woof of the program so seamlessly that they seemed utterly effortless, pleasing beyond expectation, even – in retrospect – inevitable in their harmony with the rest of the program.

  5. #20
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Brian Boitano's good and all but still...

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    I think the two hands are less awkard looking than the one hand tano... which seems to just wave wildly above the head.
    I think it depends a lot on who is doing it, how they're doing it, and what they're trying to convey with it. All the little novice/junior girls who stick their arms up in the air on every. single. jump. because it's an easy way to get +GOE are painful.

    With elite skaters, though, I think a 'tano done well can look very balletic and elegant - it is a classical ballet arm position, after all. Or even very masculine and sharp, depending on how the arm is held, something that could be appropriate in a male Carmen program or something flamenco. Obviously, it comes down to execution.

    There are programs where the double-fist could work artistically, too; it's not innately bad. I just don't think those are programs Rippon is likely to be skating. It's the jarring mismatch that bugs me, not necessarily the move itself. Of course, if he started doing the variation with his hands not clasped, sort of ballet-style, like some ladies do laybacks, that would look wonderful! I suspect that would be even harder, though, both in terms of keeping the arms upright in a good position, and making it harder to draw in and rotate. I think the arm position he uses now probably helps to compensate a little bit. An open one would probably be even more difficult.

  7. #22
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Even Boitano's arm flings around wildly at times... when it's done perfectly it looks good, but that doesn't happen all the time.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    It's nice that the jump has become a trademark for him but I don't think it is especially great technically. He jumps small, lands a bit short, and doesn't have beautiful outflow. Yeah, the air position is extremely difficult, but it's not one of the best Lutzes out there. I'd give +1 GOE for his best efforts at it and +0 for the times when the rotation and outflow (and even straightness of air position) have been clearly compromised.
    +1 GOE to whatever other GOE you'd give his lutz (which for me would usually range from 0 to +1, depending), or +1 overall? I'd agree with the former, but not the latter. Although I guess it's a matter of six of one, half dozen of the other. The arm variation definitely doesn't automatically transmute his jumps to being +3 GOE quality, no matter what some of the judges at Skate Canada seem to think. Personally, I think if he does the best lutz he's capable of AND does the arm variation (with the caveat that yeah, it will probably suffer a little on the height department no matter what), he should be getting +2 GOE.

  9. #24
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I am not necessarily a fan of difficulty for difficulty’s sake. As Doubleflutz wrote wrote, an extra feature which adds difficulty but does not support the choreography or interpretive theme is a mixed blessing.

    What was so compelling about Janet Lynn’s performances was that the technical elements were woven into the warp and woof of the program so seamlessly that they seemed utterly effortless, pleasing beyond expectation, even – in retrospect – inevitable in their harmony with the rest of the program.
    My, you really are walking on the sunny side of the street tonight.

    The Alissa factor? She sure had me smiling ........even the Lion's won

    Don't forget Janet used to jump with an arm raised over her head - she did it at 14 at the '68 Olympics.
    Last edited by janetfan; 10-31-2010 at 05:42 PM.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    So bring back 6.0. At least you got those cute flag icons.
    You know what I hated about the 6.0 system? It's when the scores and placements came up, all the commentators would say things like "oh, of course the East German judge marked her lower" or "we can expect that the British judge will mark our ladies higher."

    Or even the "Her marks have to be lower because she's skating earlier. There has to be space for other skaters." For heaven's sake, give the lady the score she deserves.

    6.0 is ambiguous. Why did she get a 5.4 and not a 5.6? I dunno, she didn't skate very pretty, maybe? I bet the French judge marked her down because of her nationality! With CoP, you can look at the protocol and know exactly what a skater did well on and what she needs to improve on.

    Gymnastics left 10.0, and skating has left 6.0. Good riddance.

  11. #26
    Figure Skating Fan Hikaru's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Falls, unfortunately, do not show much skating skills. No?
    That's exactly what I think as well. Any skater can have wonderfull skating skills (great use of the edges, speed, good technique in execution of elements, etc.) BUT if in a competition you make mistakes, at that very moment, the skating skills cannot be graded as great.

  12. #27
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    With CoP, you can look at the protocol and know exactly what a skater did well on and what she needs to improve on.

    .
    Yes, it is easy to see there is nothing Patrick needs to improve on. Under the miracle of CoP scoring he can fall three times in an SP and still get very good marks.

    I guess the judges thought his falls were very good.

  13. #28
    and... World Peace! Tonichelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I guess the judges thought his falls were very good.
    he got full rotation on the buttspin (my dad's favorite move, ranks right up there with the waxel).

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonichelle View Post
    he got full rotation on the buttspin (my dad's favorite move, ranks right up there with the waxel).
    I like the "waxel"

    And what did the CoP tell Javi - that he is second rate even with two clean skates?

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by brightphoton View Post
    Or even the "Her marks have to be lower because she's skating earlier. There has to be space for other skaters." For heaven's sake, give the lady the score she deserves.
    That's actually a good thing about 6.0. The scores were just placeholders for rankings, they weren't supposed to represent some sort of absolute measure of quality, that stays constant across competitions. As long as no one who came after a skater actually skated better, their placement would hold and they would get the medal they deserved, barring the psychological affect of skate order, but that happens no matter what, 6.0 or COP.

    6.0 is ambiguous. Why did she get a 5.4 and not a 5.6? I dunno, she didn't skate very pretty, maybe? I bet the French judge marked her down because of her nationality! With CoP, you can look at the protocol and know exactly what a skater did well on and what she needs to improve on.
    Except COP marks are not necessarily very informative on that score, even when it's being marked correctly, which it seldom is. What makes one skater's triple axel worth +1 GOE (amazing speed in and flow out) may be different from another skater's (huge height and great air position); there's no way to tell that from the protocols.

    At the same time, let's say through the magic of time travel, in one competition Alissa Czisny at her best and Lucinda Ruh at her best, perform the exact same spin variation, for the exact same number of rotations. They probably both deserve +3, and yet there's no way in the scoring system for the judges to give Lucinda points for being as amazing as she really is. Unless they start bending the rules, and just scoring things according to their overall impression of skaters, which they pretty much have done for most of COP's existence, and is also pretty much a perfect description of what 6.0 is supposed to do.

    The only really good thing about COP is the tech panel, the addition of levels, and the way elements are identified and added up in terms of their base value. Everything else is based on a pretense that doesn't really work for judging a subjective sport: that you can rank everything a skater does on an absolute scale of values, and that for any given program and set of technical elements, there is a "best" it could ever be performed. No way.

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