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Thread: I used to love the COP

  1. #31
    Mashimaro on Ice
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    The reason I prefer 6.0 over CoP is not because one is fairer over the other, but I felt the judging on 6.0 didn't take itself half as seriously as the present system. At times, the judges even basked in the obvious bias of the system and that provided great entertainment.

  2. #32
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    While I believe the CoP system will continue to undergo tweaking, especially with PCS, I don't expect it will go away. That's wishful thinking for a bygone era which isn't as good as some remember. There are just way too many good things about CoP for skaters and the sport as a whole. Skaters have a way to track their own growth, improve their skills, and know exactly where they stand. For the skaters at all levels, from Juvenile up to Senior, the report card is the first thing they go to get after a competition. It's not just about beating others, but about improving themselves. And let's face it....in a sport where only a handful of skaters ever reach the national or international stage out of thousands and thousands, it has to be about passion for the sport and personal improvement. For the sport, there is clear criteria and a much better credibility to the system. Is it perfect? Not really, but it is a ton better than what was in place before.

    I do think the ISU and local federations right down to the local club level should start an education campaign for fans to help explain how the CoP system works. A lot of the angst on these boards would be relieved if people understood the system better. It would be REALLY interesting if a judging panel and tech specialists held a forum after a competition to explain how they arrived at their marks as part of that education plan.

  3. #33
    mmmmm....Donut spin :) Kimmie Fan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I am not necessarily a fan of difficulty for difficulty’s sake. As Doubleflutz wrote wrote, an extra feature which adds difficulty but does not support the choreography or interpretive theme is a mixed blessing.
    Exhibit A. Denney/Barrett's ugly 'butt' up in the air death spirals. <shudder>

  4. #34
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    I think the factor of PCS should be reduced. Why is Ice dance the only one in which different PCS are worth different percent?Maybe if the factor of PCS was reduced in the short and long Patrick Chan's score in the SP wouldn't have been an astonishing success story in skating. I was wrong he did get all -3's for his falls on his two jumps but on his step sequence his negative GOE was from -1 to -3 as I learned that a judge must reduce the GOE from wherever they were leaning like no judge was at +3 so he got no base values but some judges were at +2 so they were the ones that went down to -1. There was some GOE manipulation in TES on the step sequence not on the jumps. Some judges went nuts with Chan's 3/3 combo. It wasn't that great. There need to be reforms so a three fall short program doesn't produce an astonishingly great score.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    Except COP marks are not necessarily very informative on that score, even when it's being marked correctly, which it seldom is.
    Now, now.

    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    The only really good thing about COP is the tech panel, the addition of levels, and the way elements are identified and added up in terms of their base value. Everything else is based on a pretense that doesn't really work for judging a subjective sport: that you can rank everything a skater does on an absolute scale of values, and that for any given program and set of technical elements, there is a "best" it could ever be performed. No way.
    When we see lots of skaters consistently getting +3 on lots of elements, the standards will change next year, so not as many get the +3. As far as I am aware, most skaters are lucky to get a +1 or even +2 at most for elements.

    Quote Originally Posted by doubleflutz View Post
    At the same time, let's say through the magic of time travel, in one competition Alissa Czisny at her best and Lucinda Ruh at her best, perform the exact same spin variation, for the exact same number of rotations. They probably both deserve +3, and yet there's no way in the scoring system for the judges to give Lucinda points for being as amazing as she really is.
    Yeah, it's too bad Ruh can't get a level 34 with a +948 GOE. Although, I don't remember her getting a 8.4 under the 6.0 era either. You couldn't give Lucinda any spinning points in 6.0 because there was no spinning component. She was such a poor jumper than she lost loads of points on the technical element anyway, so 6.0 never had to worry about rewarding her sufficiently.

  6. #36
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    Northern Dancer, there is no way that the ISU is going to "educate me" into liking a system where an excellent skater like Chan can have a 3 fall advantage over good skaters like Oda and Rippon. To me that says that the actual performance of a skater doesn't matter one IOTA.

    The more I learn about how PCS are "suppose to be judged" the more disgusted I am about this sport. Because its clear they are setting it up where outcomes are essentially predetermined. And is if Patrick Chan has that much of a cushion over good skaters like Oda and Rippon. Or where Yu-na at Worlds can get higher PCS than Mao in the long because everyone likes Yu-na's program better and it has more choregraphy and transitions. Who cares if Asada skates lights out and Yu-na is lackluster and messy.

    I'm not one who wants to see it just a jump contest. I'm not one who thinks one fall your out. But when you get to multliples.

    And the idea that a FALL on a triple axel gets you 5 something points and a Fall on a Quad 6 points is the most ridiculous and insulting thing I've ever read as a fan. I was all for those jumps finally getting worth more. But I never wanted falls to get rewarded like that. That takes away the advantage of actually landing it.

    If they want to make it so PCS has nothing to do with performance than at the very least they need to go to mess up an element-no points.

  7. #37
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    The more I learn about how PCS are "suppose to be judged" the more disgusted I am about this sport. Because its clear they are setting it up where outcomes are essentially predetermined. And is if Patrick Chan has that much of a cushion over good skaters like Oda and Rippon. Or where Yu-na at Worlds can get higher PCS than Mao in the long because everyone likes Yu-na's program better and it has more choregraphy and transitions. Who cares if Asada skates lights out and Yu-na is lackluster and messy.

    I'm not one who wants to see it just a jump contest. I'm not one who thinks one fall your out. But when you get to multliples.

    And the idea that a FALL on a triple axel gets you 5 something points and a Fall on a Quad 6 points is the most ridiculous and insulting thing I've ever read as a fan. I was all for those jumps finally getting worth more. But I never wanted falls to get rewarded like that. That takes away the advantage of actually landing it.

    .
    Good points - and there is a strong pre-determined feeling that seems to be getting stronger.

    Chan mentioned practices - but since when do good practices determine a skater's score
    Do good practice quads and 3A's matter? If I was judging it might have the opposite effect -making it more obvious a skater making mistakes in the competition - did not perform up to their capabilties.

    2010 Worlds is a good example - it shouldn't have mattered that Yuna was the new OC - in the LP I thought Mao outskated Yuna.


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    Last edited by janetfan; 11-01-2010 at 09:16 AM.

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Good points - and there is a strong pre-determined feeling that seems to be getting stronger.

    Chan mentioned practices - but since when do good practices determine a skater's score
    Do good practice quads and 3A's matter? If I was judging it might have the opposite effect -making it more obvious a skater making mistakes in the competition - did not perform up to their capabilties.

    2010 Worlds is a good example - it shouldn't have mattered that Yuna was the new OC - in the LP I thought Mao outskated Yuna.
    I still don't get that. I don't know what they were watching. Mao definitely outskated Yu na at worlds (short and long). Cheating is still alive and kicking.

    The things that comes out of Chan's mouth just baffles me more and more. I really wish he would just say nothing.

  9. #39
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    If they want to make it so PCS has nothing to do with performance than at the very least they need to go to mess up an element-no points.
    The penalty for falling needs to be increased. A mandatory 1 point deduction just doesn't cut it. In gymnastics, exercises with a fall are generally 3 to 4 points less than exercises without a fall. Someone falling 3 times in one exercise in gymnastics would be completely out of the game . . . 9 to 12 points back from a clean routine.

    What was really embarrassing for the US commentary was when Michael Weiss was explaining that skating is unlike basketball and much more difficult because skaters would be out of the game if they missed 50% of their jumps only to see Chan do just that, falling 3 times, and still remaining in medal contention whereas shooting 50-60% of your baskets in bball is pretty good.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 11-01-2010 at 11:01 AM.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    The penalty for falling needs to be increased. A mandatory 1 point deduction just doesn't cut it. In gymnastics, exercises with a fall are generally 3 to 4 points less than exercises without a fall. Someone falling 3 times in one exercise in gymnastics would be completely out of the game . . . 9 to 12 points back from a clean routine.
    But in gymnastics there aren't points for standing on the beam between tricks or running on the floor to set up a tumbling pass or vault. The setups aren't part of the sport, they're just ways to get into the judgeable moves.

    But in skating, what happens in the process of getting from one trick to the next is skating. That's the first, most important thing that's being judged, and the tricks are the second most important. So there's plenty of room for skaters to build up enough points with their skating to make up for a few errors on the tricks. Gymnasts don't have that opportunity because of the different nature of the sport.

    Falling off the beam or bars or rings means that the routine has completely stopped and the gymnast has to remount or be lifted back onto the apparatus to continue. That's a much more significant disruption than falling on the apparatus (ice or floor), getting back up, and continuing immediately.

    A fall in skating would probably be more comparable to a fall in floor excercise or a "landing" a trick on rings or beam or bars on the wrong part of the body, losing momentum, and having to regenerate it before going on to the next trick but without falling off.

    So for both reasons, it doesn't make sense to say that falls are more costly in gymnastics than in skating and therefore skating needs to change to be more like gymnastics.

    Nor should gymnastics change to be more like skating in that sense either. The sports are too different in terms of the importance of the basic interaction with the medium and the effect of falling.

  11. #41
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    The CoP system needs a good cleaning up. Get rid of the Skating Skills for one. I've asked coaches and judges what they mean and have gotten different answers to that question. It's blatant 6.0 system and just as vague with personal interests tacked on. When we are looking for a champion, the top ten skaters easily have good edges, etc. and that should not be the point of Skating Skills.

    Is CoP really trying to eliminate personal interests by the judges? I think there is enough in the present CoP system to keep personal interests continuing. bleh. I could be a judge from Andorra and still hope that Brezina wins. There may be others that hope for Brezina. That's personal interests.

    Can the CoP allow Expected Winners to be 'Held Up'? We've had a number of instances where they did and nationality was not the main reason.

    IMO, the CoP has not eliminated human frailties, and probably no scorekeeping can, in judged sport.

    What can be done about it? My only meek suggestion is the CoP must continue to improve the system from70% to 80% next year and with percentage increments each year thereafter.

    There nothing we can do except swallow the results in a clandestine sport.

  12. #42
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Falling off the beam or bars or rings means that the routine has completely stopped and the gymnast has to remount or be lifted back onto the apparatus to continue. That's a much more significant disruption than falling on the apparatus (ice or floor), getting back up, and continuing immediately.

    A fall in skating would probably be more comparable to a fall in floor excercise or a "landing" a trick on rings or beam or bars on the wrong part of the body, losing momentum, and having to regenerate it before going on to the next trick but without falling off.

    .
    They are different sports so of course the "disruptions" will be different.

    Alissa fell on her last jump in her LP but got up very quickly. So what? It was still a mistake and because the disruption may not have lasted as long as a a mistake made by a gymnast it is still a mistake and the flow of the program was disrupted.

    Skaters don't skate on a balance beam and gymnasts don't tumble on ice.

    Why all the need to compare soccer, baseball and gymnastics to skating? We may disagree about the scoring but we all can agree comparing skating to other sports feels like comparing apples and oranges.

  13. #43
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    But in skating, what happens in the process of getting from one trick to the next is skating. That's the first, most important thing that's being judged, and the tricks are the second most important...
    I think it would still make sense to give zero points for a jump that the skater fell on. The actual skating involved in performing the jump element itself (take away the landing) is pretty minimal. A skater could still get big scores in (the unfortunately named) "skating skills" and transitions if in fact he demonstrated superior skating skills and did a lot of cool transitions. He just wouldn't get any point for the jump.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by lavender View Post
    I still don't get that. I don't know what they were watching. Mao definitely outskated Yu na at worlds (short and long). Cheating is still alive and kicking.

    The things that comes out of Chan's mouth just baffles me more and more. I really wish he would just say nothing.
    That could be one reason of the rule changes. Under the new rules, Asada's score goes up and Kim's goes down.

    Torino worlds FS
    Asada 129.5 (TES 67.0) -> 130.1 (67.6)
    Kim 130.5 (TES 66.5) -> 126.7 (62.6)

    Olympics FS
    Asada 131.7 (TES 64.7) -> 132.7 (65.7)
    Kim 150.1 (TES 78.3) -> 144.0 (72.2)

    If Asada's latter 4 jumps were same as Torino worlds, it would be 140.4 (TES 73.3, higher than Kim)

    I can imagine Kim's real reason of "withdrawal" from the GPS. That was too much for nothing at this point. Anyway, if Asada skates (at least visibly) clean, I'm sure no one can beat her on paper, especially on the home ice.

    ETA
    Sorry, I've forgotten 3 2axels are not allowed under the new rules. She has to replace 2A-3T with 3S(3T)-2T or last 2A with 2Lz or something. She'll miss around 2 points including the GOE. Of course she can go for the incredibly difficult 3Lo!
    Last edited by NMURA; 11-01-2010 at 01:00 PM.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    But in skating, what happens in the process of getting from one trick to the next is skating. That's the first, most important thing that's being judged, and the tricks are the second most important. So there's plenty of room for skaters to build up enough points with their skating to make up for a few errors on the tricks. Gymnasts don't have that opportunity because of the different nature of the sport.
    I agree and it's a good point, but I am not at all certain that judges actually look for transitions. If they see them, they may tack on a plus goe for them. If they do not see them, they are oblivious to their absence. Before Mr. Inman rightfully spoke up, Plushy always did his big jumps by cross rolls and step into jumps. It was like another day a practice. Music was incidental. For the recent Olys, he actually used transitions and his jump landings were wonky. So whether or not, he got scored for the transitions, he scored lower for the actual jumps.
    I do believe that blade to ice is more important than air-turns to ice. And for topic, as I said before, a Fall in Ice Dance is detrimental to a Score - not necessarily so in Singles.

    My only experience in Gymnastics was a Kip in High School which was required for graduation. So I'm mute on that subject.

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