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Thread: I used to love the COP

  1. #76
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    Hmm, interesting discussion, my only contribution on the subject is that there does need to be a change, that is obvious. And hopefully it will be addressed asap, and not until after the next Olympics, when it will be too late.

    I also appreciate those that can have a discussion without putting down one skater in order to elevate another, when that happens I automatically dismiss that person, even if s/he may have had some good points, all is lost, unfortunately, because I can not help but focus on the bias, which therefore colors my perception and any strides that may have been made.

  2. #77
    Six Point Zero Krislite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    Asada wins worlds anyway. But the case of Olympics is arguable. If Asada was allowed to do a solo 3A in the SP, Kim couldn't have a big lead, or she could be the 2nd. The whole picture would change.

    Patrick Chan's scoring is questionable. But I appreciate his quad attempts (and one success). The quadless men like Rippon will face difficulty of even winning GPS. More men are doing the quads, and more ladies are doing 3-3s. I think the new rules are better than the older ones. The COP is developing into the positive way.
    Let's not get carried away with how things would have turned out had the rules been different. You cannot fairly say that had the current rules been around during the Olympics, Mao would have done a solo 3A in the SP and won. When comparing such changes, you either do it ceteris paribus (other things equal) or allow everything else to adjust accordingly to the changes. So while Asada might have done a solo 3A in the SP in light of the new rules, you cannot assume that Kim would not have changed anything in her program or jump layout, either in the short or the long program, to remain competitive.

    And I totally disagree with you on the merits of a flawed technically "difficult" program vs. a clean "easy" program. Flaws on execution demonstrate poor technique, which only reinforces how difficult the elements are, not how talented the skater is. A superior skater shows effortless execution of a difficult element. If he struggles and makes a mistake, well that's why we call it hard, now don't we? I'll grant you it might show he has "guts" for attempting said difficult element, but not superiority or mastery.

    The new CoP rules are rewarding effort, not result. That Patrick Chan could fall four times and still get so much credit for his quad and triple axel attempts is proof of this. My philosophy for a judging system is totally contrary to this. Results--not effort--should be rewarded. If that means not busting out an element you can't confidently and consistently execute with mastery, then that's a very good thing. Perhaps I'm just less tolerant of seeing mistakes, flaws and falls, but my gut feeling tells me it is an injustice that today's judging system would value Chan's quad with a fall equal to or more than Boitano's triple lutz.

  3. #78
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    I actually really like CoP. I don't think the system is at fault; it's the messy judging and rewarding scores not according to the requirements, but to the skaters' reputation. A judges' favorite will get more GoEs for wobbly jumps than excellent jumpers with steps in and out of their jumps. A skater who is 3rd/4th better not hope for high PCS, because they will not get them.

    Another problem is the fact that thge judges can't seem to grasp the idea of PCS and are just using them as if they would the presentation mark back in 6.0 days, except not always bothering to deduct for falls. Very few judges has the guts to differentiate the components.

    And another "problem" is the fact that the fans just can't be satisfied. After the Olympics 2006 there was this big outrage that Plushenko won with his empty programs and Jeff kept falling on quads and yet getting nice points for the attempt and "freeing" a slot for one more triple. At the same time, some skaters (Baboo) felt that _successful_ quads aren't worth enough. To keep both sides satifsied, the base value of 3A and quads was raised, but the failed attempts were to be penalized more. But the penalty for failed/underrotated jumps became so harsh that the skaters were afraid to attempt them at all (and those who did were often at disadvantage in comparison to skaters who went for easier jumps, but skated clean), and again, the system was adjusted... And we are back to Torino.

    Same goes with spins. I remember a LOT of fans saying that CoP killed the spins, because it forced the skaters to do a lot of unattractive positions instead of holding one for many revolutions, which looks much more pleasant. So the system was adjusted so now the levels can be gained by holding the position for more than 8 revolutions and accelerating, while repeating the same position in different spins is discouraged. And I already read a few opinions that now the spins are boring, and it was better when the skaters did many positions in one spin. ^^'

    The fans, they will never be satisfied.

    Quote Originally Posted by sequinsgalore View Post
    Do anyone know what the skaters and audience thought of the scores? Just curious...
    The only report I've seen (from BoI):

    Oda was awesome to watch. I never liked him before, but he has amazing skating skills and enormous height on his jumps. I think he's not outwardly expressive, but the quality of his skating is impeccable. He definitly should have beaten P-chan. I think Rippon was fairly marked although some people think he should have won the event. Although he is very artistic and has very clean jumps and edges, he comes off as less polished than Chan or Oda.

  4. #79
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by emma View Post
    I like the sound of what gkelly is suggesting - each sucessive fall a larger deduction. Is there any serious consideration of this? I know that it wouldn't impact this season, of course, but just wondering if those more connected and involved are discussing this as a possibility.
    That is a good immediate suggestion but I can not get away from the definitions of an element. I think we pussyfoot the elite skaters far too much in this Sport. After all, it's just for one competition and a Fall during a Jump is an incomplete jump, and should not have any points. A skater should learn from his mistakes for the next competition. Many do.

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    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prettykeys View Post
    I enjoy looking at the gray square that is JoeSitz's avatar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Spun Silver View Post
    Yes, it's a little like a Rothko!
    Ladies, I spent an entire night working on that Avatar. BTW, Did you know that Rembrandt had a hundred different shades of black?

  6. #81
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I surely know that Sherwin Williams has a hundred shades of white

    And that my success rate matching them by eye is low.

    Thank goodness they have that paint analysis machine these days.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-02-2010 at 05:47 AM.

  7. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Krislite View Post
    Let's not get carried away with how things would have turned out had the rules been different. You cannot fairly say that had the current rules been around during the Olympics, Mao would have done a solo 3A in the SP and won. When comparing such changes, you either do it ceteris paribus (other things equal) or allow everything else to adjust accordingly to the changes. So while Asada might have done a solo 3A in the SP in light of the new rules, you cannot assume that Kim would not have changed anything in her program or jump layout, either in the short or the long program, to remain competitive.
    I was not carried away. Kim could include the 3Lo to counter Asada's "difficulty". Actually, the track record shows she has never landed a 3Lo in any competitions with Asada. Her "anxiety" and a likely fall could affect the PCS. Avoiding the 3Lo means no 2A-3T and lower base values (plus GOE). In either case, the judges would hesitate to give out more than outrageous PCS and GOE when Kim is skating before Asada.

    The point is, the base value is more important now, and arbitrary uses of GOE can be checked to some extent. No more milking points with 3 2axels. Look at the juniors. All ladies qualified for JGPF have five different triples, and 5 of them have 3-3s. In last season, only Shelepen had them. The new rules made a visible change. Ladies need to master the full set of triples and 3-3s, and senior men need the quad to be competitive now.

    The new CoP rules are rewarding effort, not result. That Patrick Chan could fall four times and still get so much credit for his quad and triple axel attempts is proof of this. My philosophy for a judging system is totally contrary to this. Results--not effort--should be rewarded. If that means not busting out an element you can't confidently and consistently execute with mastery, then that's a very good thing. Perhaps I'm just less tolerant of seeing mistakes, flaws and falls, but my gut feeling tells me it is an injustice that today's judging system would value Chan's quad with a fall equal to or more than Boitano's triple lutz.
    "Effort" is very valuable. Programs with quads (or, 3A or 3-3s for ladies) require more stamina and concentration than easier ones. Higher PCS and somewhat generous GOE can be justified. Patrick Chan's quad attempt in the SP will encourage (force, more exactly) other men to follow the same path. If he is the one heralded the new quad era, a gifted gold medal at a small competition is not anything to fuss. IMO, a fallen quad is more valuable than point begging Rippon lutz.

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    "Effort" is very valuable. Programs with quads (or, 3A or 3-3s for ladies) require more stamina and concentration than easier ones. Higher PCS and somewhat generous GOE can be justified. Patrick Chan's quad attempt in the SP will encourage (force, more exactly) other men to follow the same path. If he is the one heralded the new quad era, a gifted gold medal at a small competition is not anything to fuss. IMO, a fallen quad is more valuable than point begging Rippon lutz.
    I completely disagree. A fall on a quad is more valuable than a perfectly done, double-tano 3Lz? Please. What's wrong with Adam's lutz, anyways? It's an impressive feat and I don't see how it's more "point begging" than the quad.

    And let's see if Patrick lands another quad before we anoint him as The One Who Heralded the New Quad Era. Right now he has a 50% success rate, which isn't all that impressive, especially if he keeps on skating messy programs. And besides, I don't see the advent of a new quad era anyway. Skaters were incorporating the quad into the programs long before this year's rule changes.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I was not carried away. Kim could include the 3Lo to counter Asada's "difficulty". Actually, the track record shows she has never landed a 3Lo in any competitions with Asada. Her "anxiety" and a likely fall could affect the PCS. Avoiding the 3Lo means no 2A-3T and lower base values (plus GOE). In either case, the judges would hesitate to give out more than outrageous PCS and GOE when Kim is skating before Asada.
    i guess that "anxiety" didn't show at the olympics when she had sooo much pressure from her country. you're assuming that she will crack because she's not doing the 3loop in the actual competition. it's just a "what if" theory. i think orser and her team would have prepared her for that.

  10. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycan View Post
    i guess that "anxiety" didn't show at the olympics when she had sooo much pressure from her country. you're assuming that she will crack because she's not doing the 3loop in the actual competition. it's just a "what if" theory. i think orser and her team would have prepared her for that.
    I'm talking about the different scenario. Kim had a 5 point lead and she didn't need the incredibly difficult 3Lo. She has no reason to be "anxious". I understand the judges appreciate "confidence".

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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I'm talking about the different scenario. Kim had a 5 point lead and she didn't need the incredibly difficult 3Lo. She has no reason to be "anxious". I understand the judges appreciate "confidence".
    like what Krislite said on her post, yuna and her team woud have prepared her for the rules if it was implemented.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    I completely disagree. A fall on a quad is more valuable than a perfectly done, double-tano 3Lz? Please. What's wrong with Adam's lutz, anyways? It's an impressive feat and I don't see how it's more "point begging" than the quad.

    And let's see if Patrick lands another quad before we anoint him as The One Who Heralded the New Quad Era. Right now he has a 50% success rate, which isn't all that impressive, especially if he keeps on skating messy programs. And besides, I don't see the advent of a new quad era anyway. Skaters were incorporating the quad into the programs long before this year's rule changes.
    Rippon is doing tano-Lutz three times. One of them is a tano-tano-tano combination. That's too much. He gives the impression of a point begger than a technical master. Some of the judges may feel the same way. He'd better getting serious about the quad, if he wants to be competitive at the top level.

    A fallen quad worths 6.3 point now. The base value of a 3lutz is 6 points. I'd like to see more quad attempts than beautiful triples. Patrick Chan is a good demonstration that it "pays".

    Quote Originally Posted by lycan View Post
    like what Krislite said on her post, yuna and her team woud have prepared her for the rules if it was implemented.
    Preparing is one thing. Landing the incredibly difficult jump actually under the most tense situation is another.
    Last edited by NMURA; 11-02-2010 at 08:37 AM.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    ^ Me, too.

    But about the Skating Skills component, on that one for once I do think that the ISU rules are pretty clear as to what they are talking about:

    “Balance and rhythmic knee action and precision of foot placement..

    “Flow and effortless glide.

    “Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps and turns

    “Power/energy and acceleration.

    “Mastery of multi-directional skating.

    “Mastery of one-foot skating.

    (I’m not 100% sure on the “rhythmic knee action,” but I think I understand the rest to some extent.)
    A good list if this is what is shown as bullets although most of the list is common sense. However, there are probably more items regarding Skills that are not listed. Much of the athletics show skills including one foot mastery, e.g. take-off and landing of a jump. To do a difficult jump (e.g. Lutz) are the skills working? Likewise on a convoluted spin is it centered? So much of skills is carried in the definitions. I would leave Skating Ability to stroking and turning on the ice although Seniors should not have a problem with stroking and basic turns. One could admire Laura Lepisto's stroking and basics under Interpretation.

    Oops... rhythmic knee action, I presume to be the old 'soft knee landings'. A look at Oda's jump landings explains it all. He completes the jump without 'selling it'. It's just plain old skate-by-definition. But other skaters get excited when they land a difficult jump and show it with some sort of reaction, e.g. flexing an arm. Oda's jump looks like a dance step, the selling jump looks like a trick. One can choose between the two.
    Last edited by Joesitz; 11-02-2010 at 09:16 AM.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    A good list if this is what is shown as bullets although most of the list is common sense. However, there are probably more items regarding Skills that are not listed.
    That's the list of what is officially considered in Skating Skills. Those are the things that every judge is supposed to consider. The references to edges can apply to jump takeoffs and landings, but those are only 10 or 20 edges out of hundreds throughout the program.

    Spins are not really about the edges, so that wouldn't apply.

    Oops... rhythmic knee action, I presume to be the old 'soft knee landings'.
    Rhythmic knee action refers to the action of the knees throughout the stroking, including crossovers, and steps.

  15. #90
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lycan View Post
    i guess that "anxiety" didn't show at the olympics...
    I love what-ifs. Actually, I am pretty sure that if the rules had been different then Yu-na's "anxiety" on her triple loop would have caused a surge of adrenalin and she woiuld have done a quad loop instead of a tripl;e. Thus beating the competition by thirty points instead of a paltry twenty.

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