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Thread: I used to love the COP

  1. #106
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poodlepal View Post
    Figure skating has to keep the integrity of the sport, but it also can't become such a niche sport that only the obsessed can understand the judge's decisions. It is a sport, and it is entertainment, ...
    I think that is the catch-22 right there. GKelly asks (I hope rhetorically),

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    The question is, do audiences want to become educated about the technical details of the sport, or do they want to sit back on their couches, enjoy the pretty skating, maybe count the jumps and the falls, and believe they know more than the judges about who deserves to win?
    I say rhetorically because no one wants to become educated about figure skating or anything else, and everyone wants to sit back, enjoy pretty skating and believe they know more than the judges.

    And again,

    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly
    Probably depends on each audience member. Do they go out of their way to learn about the sport by reading or going to the rink...
    No. Audiences are not in the business of going out of their way. That's why they are the audience and not the athletes/performers.

    I do not see any way out of this dilemma. Tweaking the CoP -- fascinating as this topic is to us skating enthusiasts -- does not speak to the question of audience appeal.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-02-2010 at 07:47 PM.

  2. #107
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    Here's the reason I hate going by audience involvement. Audiences have a range of knowledge and intelligence. Audience have different motives for cheering. I mean, right now, figure skating judging is like the Oscars or the Emmys. They don't always get it right. Sometimes, they never do. Trying to dumb it down for audience consumption? Well, now it's the MTV movie awards. The Wire is a difficult, complicated show that isn't "entertaining" in an uplifting way, but try to tell me it's a lesser show than Two and a Half Men and I will likely stop talking to you.

    You see it in this thread. If it's a failed element, it should be 0. But not flutzes, under-rotated jumps, etc. Those, despite being failed elements, aren't obviously failed. It's like on a test. If I get every question 1/2 (+1) wrong, I failed. If I skip the essay question that's worth 50% of the overall mark and make bobbles here and there, I still failed. One's more obvious, but they're both still failing. And frankly, I'm not all that interested in seeing Kevin Reynolds always-popped-to-single triple axel be marked as a better technical element that Chan's fall on the quad/triple axel. Frankly, both look like errors, and in Reynolds' case, equally destabilizing to the program.

    What I think would be a worthwhile avenue to explore is saying falls should be a mandatory PCS deduction. A fall in a program is poor choreography, poor interpration (for that moment), poor demonstration of skating skills (blade to ice shouldn't mean bum to ice, otherwise I'd rock) and maybe poor transitions/performance (I think Florent Amodio's fall in the SA 2009 LP would be an exception. His reaction to falling was well performed). People want it dinged heavily because it disturbs the program profoundly. So shouldn't the deduction be in the [b]Program[/i] Component scores, because it's not simply a failed element (which would be solely TES), it's a potentially program altering moment.

  3. #108
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    I think that is the catch-22 right there. GKelly asks (I hope rhetorically),

    I say rhetorically because no one wants to become educated about figure skating or anything else, and everyone wants to sit back, enjoy pretty skating and believe they know more than the judges.

    And again,

    No. Audiences are not in the business of going out of their way. That's why they are the audience and not the athletes/performers.

    I do not see any way oit of this dilemma. Tweaking the CoP -- fascinating as this topic is to us skating enthusiasts -- does not speak to the question of audience appeal.
    I agree with you on these points.
    I wonder what gkelly would think about fans who have made a good effort to learn more about the Cop - and the more they learn they LESS they like it.

    Aside from the dilema about how to score jumps - which feels over managed to me - the PCS seem to be a complete mess.

    They seem at times to be little more than ways to manipulate the outcomes and to basically prop up the favorites on off nights or push them over the top in a close competition.

    In a situation when a certain skater is known to been very strong in the components then there is also the tech panel which can also make or break a skater.

    I happen to be a fan of Patrick's skating but that doesn't mean I think he should win by a convoluted system that fails to have marks that realistically represent the way he skated at SC. Mistakes used to matter under 6.0 but some skaters appear to be getting a free pass.

    The 6.0 presentation mark was certainly more clear to fans and yet some act like that was a BAD THING.

    To the contrary it would have been fun at last season's Natls to see the judges scoring Rachael and Mirai both at 5.8 for the presention mark. Fans could immediatly see that something was wrong and yet the CoP got away with it because most fans don't know enough and unfortunately CARE enough to see how one skater was held up and given scores equal to a clearly superior artisitic skater.

    Anonymous judges, a lack of accountabilty and a system so easily manipulated does not represent a change from the past. It is the same old thing ,,,,,,
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-02-2010 at 08:13 PM.

  4. #109
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    You see it in this thread. If it's a failed element, it should be 0. But not flutzes, under-rotated jumps, etc. Those, despite being failed elements, aren't obviously failed. It's like on a test....
    Toi be consistent, all errors on jumps should result in 0 points. If this is the position you are arguing for, it would have the merit of consistency.

    Personally, I think consistency is over-rated, but that's me.

    We do not come out ahead by calling the audience stupid and lazy. If the audience doesn't like what they see they will simply vote with their remotes. That is why I say this is an insoluble dilemma. All we can do is write off the audience, come up with the best of all possible CoPs, and accept the consequences.

    This last sentence is not sarcasm. It is, I'm afraid, just the way it is.

  5. #110
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    ImaginaryPogue is stealing my "use-tangents-about-film-to-make-comparisons-to-figure-skating" trademark.

    Actually I don't mind.

    I do mind how long it takes ISU to implement the excellent ideas that have been served to them on a silver platter, though, and how they often don't even implement them correctly.

    An ideal CoP is out there, waiting.

  6. #111
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades of Passion View Post
    I do mind how long it takes ISU to implement the excellent ideas that have been served to them on a silver platter, though...
    It is amazing how the ISU does not implement all the suggestions that they read on figure skating message boards, chat rooms, and twitter pages. Can't Cinquanta read?

  7. #112
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    Personally, I think consistency is over-rated, but that's me.
    It's about standards.

    We do not come out ahead by calling the audience stupid and lazy. If the audience doesn't like what they see they will simply vote with their remotes. That is why I say this is an insoluble dilemma. All we can do is write off the audience, come up with the best of all possible CoPs, and accept the consequences.

    This last sentence is not sarcasm. It is, I'm afraid, just the way it is.
    Agreed, though I have no qualms about calling the audience stupid and lazy.

  8. #113
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    It's about standards.
    There are no standards in the CoP. What the CoP is about is compromise (the opposite of standards), If you make this kind of error that counts 70% as much as if you make that kind of error.

    (The CoP. in fact, follows one of my favorite maxims: "A foolish consistency is the hobgobblin of small minds." )

    In this very thread we are arguing about whether a failed quad should get more points than a satisfactory Lutz. Think about it. A failed quad. Where is the standard?

    Agreed, though I have no qualms about calling the audience stupid and lazy.
    God must love stupid, lazy people. He made so many of them.

    I don't want to get all serious here, but...

    Yes, we are permitted to hold the audience in contempt. But then we cannot also complain that skating is losing its popularity.

    Figure skating has always been an elitist sport. It seems to be the ISU's mission to make sure it stays that way.
    Last edited by Mathman; 11-02-2010 at 11:59 PM.

  9. #114
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    Asada's rival is not Kim

    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I'm pointing out "directions of changes" rather than current situations. "Asada vs Kim" is just an example of "positive" changes of the new CoP. The whole system needs more time to develop. Under the old rules, Kostner would've won FS at NHK Trophy by a small margin. Obviously, the next move should be making arbitrary uses of the PCS more difficult.
    Mao Asada does not deserve to be a rival to Yuna. Yuna is another level. I dont find anyone in the female skaters who is qualifed as a bitter rival to Yuna. Espcially, Mao is struggling so badly this season (and previous a few seasons as well), it does not make sense to me.

    Mao benefits most from the new rule... It is quite frustating for her not to take advantage of any of rule changes and her standing at NHK was the worst ever.... it is ironic, isnt it?

  10. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    There's no sense of doing two 3-3s point-wise. Kim stopped the 3F-3T because she can't avoid edge calls with that. The 2A-3T is easier and produces better GOE .

    I agree Asada has made many wrong decisions. Why didn't she attempt the 3F-3T, which gained +1.4 GOE at 2008 worlds. I suspect Kim's switch to the 3Lz-3T comes from the fear for Asada's 3F-3T. Abandoning the Lutz was totally unwise. A 3flutz is better than no lutz anyway. This decision must have given very bad impressions to the judges, and the rivals are benefited as a result. Many people complained her choices of music. Since this is not "Asada's faults" thread, I'd better stop here.



    Unlike the incredibly difficult 3loop, Kim is doing the not-so-easy flip jump at every competition. Her level of "anxiety" must be different. Sorry, I didn't waste time to check protocols of Jr competitions which I've never seen.
    Lol stop embarrassing yourself. It looks like you think the skating world revolves around Asada (or maybe it is all just a plan to make her fans look bad?). Time for a reality check?
    Every skater has their own nemesis. Asada's level of "anxiety" will probably higher when she's doing lutz even though it is an incredibly "easier" jump than triple axel.
    BTW even Rachel Flatt is not afraid of Asada's 3F-3T.
    Last edited by Johnnnn; 11-03-2010 at 01:34 AM.

  11. #116
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnnnn View Post
    Lol stop embarrassing yourself. It looks like you think the skating world revolves around Asada (or maybe it is all just a plan to make her fans look bad?). Every skater has their own nemesis. Asada's level of "anxiety" will probably higher when she's doing lutz even though it is an incredibly "easier" jump than triple axel.
    I totally agree...

    NMURA, your lovely Mao Asada will benefit most from your silence. You not helping her...

  12. #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by NMURA View Post
    I'm talking about the different scenario. Kim had a 5 point lead and she didn't need the incredibly difficult 3Lo. She has no reason to be "anxious". I understand the judges appreciate "confidence".
    You must have a huge fantasy on Triple Loop to a point where you think the entire LP and the skater's confidence revolves around that one jump. Just because it's Asada's favourite (and the only one she could land in a recent competition) it doesn't mean it's the most important jump in figure skating.

  13. #118
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    Now to add to the topic of this thread, I must say I like 6.0 better than COP. I used to think COP is more fair, but apprantly not so much according to Skate Canada. COP gives too much power to the tech caller (less people to lobby than 6.0 perhaps) and it can be just as manipulative as 6.0.
    Also, when it was 6.0, at least everyone knew what 6.0 meant. Now we get this scores that people don't understand and often there are more questions and doubts in the audience than excitement.
    Last edited by Johnnnn; 11-03-2010 at 01:50 AM.

  14. #119
    Skating is art, if you let it be. Blades of Passion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It is amazing how the ISU does not implement all the suggestions that they read on figure skating message boards, chat rooms, and twitter pages. Can't Cinquanta read?
    Written manuscripts for my entire manifesto of CoP changes have been delivered each of the past 3 seasons! Allegedly they've been "looked at" each time. I do know a few things have been copied pretty much word-for-word into the seasonal ISU updates. Unfortunately at the rate they're going it will be 20 years before everything is fixed.

  15. #120
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    With Chan bouncing around on the Ice and others skating tall, the audience is confused except for Chan fans. The Chan fans look to that one item in the scoring system called Skating Ability which is a remnant of the 6.0 system. With Senior skaters, who's to say that one Rocker is better than another. The scoring item, Skating Ability is to hold up favorites for possible podium finish. A judge can say one skater has better basics than another and it is usually a favorite who is experiencing a melt down. We've seen it all before many times. This does not happen to the group outside the top five.

    Much of what is covered by those bullets in Skating Ability should be, if they are not already, covered in the scoring system called Interpretation. One's skating ability is quite clear when considering interpretation.

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