Constable , Costume Police
Gee ,Pogue, I wasn't referring to your reaction to C/P's program. I was thinking of the official explanation being given out through Tracy Wilson about how it tells the story of Eleanor Rigby and although she dies at the end, it's such a release from her suffering, it's still uplifting... Then, I was reading a bit on the Crone & Poirier thread at SFU, and there are people there stretching to make every movement symbolic of various stages of ER's life ,from cradle to grave ( literally). This is the kind of slef-indulgent, apologist ..well, spin..that I find very hard to stomach. I have no issue with people who were moved by C/P's skating , although I wasn't particularly. As I say, I like the program, it's filled with some lovely difficult stuff. I love the lines in some of the positions they take. It's good, but not one of the best things he's ever done, as some would like to convince us. I don't feel as powerfully affected by it as I've felt by Dean programs that he's skated himself with Torville , or that he's choreographed for skaters who can exude an inner intensity, like the Duschenays, but that's rare. I didn't feel it in the program he did for B/K, either. Maybe it will be there by the end of the season, but I tend to think the program is designed to cover the fact that they don't emote that well.
That doesn't mean that I don't think they're capable of taking bronze in China, but its far from a given because B/S are very good, and they can deliver the kind of projection their program calls for. Which kind of program will the judges prefer in this year of getting back to dancing and no convoluted stories ?
( Dog walking..further explanation coming. )
Last edited by colleen o'neill; 11-30-2010 at 01:01 AM.
Constable , Costume Police
I almost just edited my way back in, but I type so slowly, I thought it might be a bad idea.
About W/P , Pogue , I know , I know...But look, you can see the improvement in them. Many thought they should not have been the ones to miss the Olympics , last year. ( I don't feel qualified to say that definitively, but I know it was close ). And heaven knows ,they were not alone in having mishaps this year, and neither of their GP's gave them a chance at any home country boost in their marks ( if there was to be any )...Plus, I thought I sensed a new determination in Kaitlyn's post skate interview at SA..it didn't have that same aura of having seen the handwriting on the wall , and just mouthing the usual cliches, that I seem to remember from the last year or two. So I hope to see them come out gangbusters and give the judges something to think about.
Whatever the outcome of the GPF, I hope it's well judged . Likewise for Nationals.
Looking forward to it.
a) The "uplift" part is ridiculous, but so less so than the new ice dance requirements. I also think you're misinterpreting the rules, or at least the impact they'll have. If they wanted to, they could've placed C/P behind the Shibs at Skate America (hometown bonus + C/P's mistake).
b) "Not one of the best things Dean has done".... well, when you have a resume like his..... - he's choreographed for at least three world champions (himself w/ Torvill, Duchesnays, A/P). I don't mind people exploring the depth of the dance because instinctively I feel a reading on those lines (similar to how Blades read into Amodio's LP. I'm not sure I'd go that far, but a couple of moments inside had me thinking a reading along those lines was plausible).
c) They didn't score that much worse at SA than at SC. You're right, W/P have had mishaps, that isn't the the thing. The mishaps of the other teams don't cause them to be dropped the way they do. In other words, my thing reading your posts is that I think you emphasize a little too much of the negative with C/P and a little too much the positive with W/P. JMO.
Weaver/Poge killed it with that distasteful program for me, so I will be looking at Bobrova/Soloviev who are not your typical Russian stylists but very good musical skaters. Also Chock and Zuerlein who should not have done Piaf. They should have done Garland.
Constable , Costume Police
Oh, I knew it...If I seem like I'm a bit anti C/P and a bit pro W/P , I admit I always knew
I could be taken that way. It was a calculated risk. I don't mean to say C/P are worthless, undeserving, or anything remotely like that..I just don't like the build-up that's been gong on ( probably PR aimed toward Nationals , I think ..which, if true, is not a thing I like to see ). I like them , but that doesn't mean I don't see their flaws, and there's no use pretending they don't exist. I like their program.There are many shapes ,positions, movements in the choreography that evoke alienation, loneliness, etc. very well, without requiring any particular ability to express emotion on the skaters' part. It's already there, in the program, in the way a head is turned, or whatever... That doesn't mean that it's not a good program ( quite the reverse, actually )..but there's no use pretending that the skaters have suddenly made leaps and bounds in their emotive ability.( But if the skaters could project some emotion , and I don't mean making faces, it would really add to the effect )
And when I say it's not the best work of Dean's that I've seen, that doesn't mean I think it's no good..just that I don't think it's quite the masterpiece some avid C/P fans want to claim ; that it's certain to take an equal place in skating history with Bolero, or Missing. It may well turn out to be a masterpiece of disguising the areas where C/P need further development ; emotion ,connection between partners, more fluidity in the body.
B/S , as far as I can see, made up the same number of placements between Olys and World's as C/P ( C/P 14 to 7 , B/S 15 to 8 ) due to retirements etc. I'm not forgetting that B/S's short program was not well received last year and that they ,too, have worked very hard over the summer. ( I'll bet he's twizzling away as we speak..) Like Joe, I think they're a very musical couple , and nicely expressive without being hammy. They have a well choreographed romantic program, with very nice music. ( and costumes )
I was being a bit facetious about the judging panel ( When have they ever stuck to their own guidelines if it didn't suit them ?)..but we haven't seen these couples head to head, B/S have more competitions under their belt ,and who's to say the panel won't prefer their kind of programs and /or expression ? It's not a given.
Overall ,I don't really like W/P's FD either..although I don't exactly find it distasteful..just pretty ordinary. I think they deserve something..more.. But if they execute it well technically,there's no question they connect to each other and with the audience.What will the judges do then ? I have had to raise my eyebrows when C/P have won over them on the strength of PCS scores. If I were them, it might have been enough to shake my confidence , in the past. So it's not that I'm such an uber for them , but I feel they deserve not to be counted out. So I keep giving their horn a toot. If Canada counts them out , the rest of the world will follow.
Last edited by colleen o'neill; 11-30-2010 at 08:55 PM.
I tend to agree a bit with Colleen.
C/P have made some improvements, and I really like their program. It's a great departure from what they have done before, and I like that they are stretching their limits. Is it the best thing that ever was? Don't think so. And yes, they still need to work on emotion, connection and fluidity. For those first 2, I think age and maturity have something to do with their lack of these. Really, they are still both teenagers. However, with the many years they have spent together skating, you would think this would not be such an issue. As for the last one, I've been thinking about this. On one hand, I think both skaters have benefited from skating singles - strength, speed, elements like twizzles - but perhaps it has also had a negative impact. Dance is about fluidity of movement individually and together. It puts a greater demand on both technical and artistic together. Singles builds the technical perhaps, but lots and lots of dance - modern, jazz, ballet, creating choreography off ice - is needed to balance. They sort of look more like 2 really good singles skaters that happen to dance well together, than pure dancers. Again, maybe as they get older this will all fall into place. I think the reason their SD is a little "ho hum" is because it is missing that fluidity of movement with a hint of sultry.
I like the Russians. I agree how they will do will depend on what side of the pendulum the judges fall - classical lines vs something unique and interesting.
And that goes for W/P as well. I LOVE their SD. It is elegant, the connection is there, and if they skate clean, it can finish ahead of C/P and the Russians. If C/P are more modern and technical, W/P are more classical, artistic dancers. They lack consistency, and their nerves seem to get the better of them from time to time. But when they are on, they are very lovely. I am also disappointed in their FD. It's really missing a "wow" factor for some reason. Maybe it will get better over the season, but it's not my favourite of theirs. But it would be a mistake to count them out entirely. In Canada, we have a clear #1 team (V/M), 2 teams that could easily trade 2nd and 3rd, depending on the day and the style of skating preferred (C/P and W/P). I'm not sure what exactly to do with I/P. They are the developing team, with a couple more teams not far behind....how far behind I'm not sure.
You know, I'm beginning to feel like a C/P-bot, and I thought such a creature was a myth.
Constable , Costume Police
If you are , I'm sure it's in the best possible way.
Ice dance just started and after the first 3 teams, guess what, the order is exactly the opposite everyone would've expected:
1. H/Z 55.98
2. W/P 55.51
3. B/S 54.33
The Hungarians skated very well, I thought, Andrew made some error I think in his first twizzle
and Dmitry messed badly his second twizzle, and their whole skate looked rushed and rough to me.
Ice Dancing and Johnny Fan
And to complete this picture, C&P are now behind both H&Z and W&P. And half a point ahead of the Russians. Make of that what you will.
I thought they were okay. Low levels/invalid elements?
Originally Posted by MissIzzy
Is it me, or does the technical panel seem weird at this event?
I agree, the technical panel is very weird!!!
Don't know. Still it's only about one point difference between teams 3 to 6. Yes C&P was suppose to slighly run away with the bronze; it looks like they will have to do a solid FD now.
Originally Posted by sequinsgalore
Interesting how close it is between D/W and P/B. Three points.
C/P did a workmanlike routine and the marks shows it. Have no idea of their levels, but they didn't fill out the arena as I thought they did at SC, at least towards the end. On a positive note, Vanessa has a superb dress (nightblue/silver) for a change, so I would like to see those constant wardrobe critics stop mumbling about her dresses!
Originally Posted by MissIzzy
P/B and D/W were superb and completely in a different category.
Last edited by herios; 12-10-2010 at 06:15 AM.
??? I thought they would be even closer. P/B made huge improvements this year and every time they step on the ice their marks go up. They were having such a huge pattern (aka speed) in their GW that i think Fabian graced the boards with his skate.
Originally Posted by Mrs. P
Last edited by herios; 12-10-2010 at 05:19 AM.