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Thread: Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

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    Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

    Patrick Chan tends to get very high PCS (and sometimes high GOEs) at most competitions. I'm a big figure skating fan, but I never skated myself. So I don't understand the intricacies of figure skating. Now I have a serious question to the experts here:

    Are Patrick Chan's skating skills, transitions, etc. actually much better than the skating skills and transitions of all the other male single skaters in the world (like Abbott, Kozuka)?

    I just want to know, because it's easier for me to accept his high PCS if he's really so much better than the others.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    I would have less problems with all the PCS marks, Chan's included, if the different components were graded directly from the performance rather than incremently from the Skating Skills mark.

    Let's create a perfect skating skills skater (10.0 say) but who has punk choreography and poor performance. He should not be getting 9.5 for those two grades. He should maybe be getting 5 each for those two grades. But that is not what would happen. Another example is Plushenko's self admitted missing transitions. If the perfect skating skills skater has virtually no transitions, he should not be getting 9 for transitions, based down from his 10.

    Unless Chan's basic skating skills are different in the season than at Liberty, I would not say that he is significantly different than Abbott. (Both have competed at Liberty in the same event). But I would rather watch Ryan Bradley than either. However, I would definitely say that Ryan's skating skills should be graded significantly lower than Abbott and Chan. However, at least as skated at Liberty, Ryan's performance grade should outshine both of them.

    The current judges don't do grade the components separately, though. I believe Joe Inman attempted to challenge this system, at least with respect to grading transitions high when there were no transitions. He took a lot of flak for doing that, perhaps rightly so, since the time he picked to do it was neither the time nor the place.

    I do feel that you can't really judge the skating skills of a skater accurately unless you have seen the skater live. Effortless skating is sometimes very deceiving on TV. You wouldn't realize how much Kwan's skating skills circa 2003 were superior to Cohen's if you hadn't seen both live, for example.
    Last edited by dorispulaski; 11-02-2010 at 05:40 AM.

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    No, I don't think that Chan's skating skills, transitions, etc. are so much better than skating skills of all the other male single skaters in the world. Moreover, he is an awful jumper and his expression is far to be good and beautiful. But he has been repeatedly overscored. He sold himself as a drama queen and a very rude abuser of other skaters. This PR trick did the main work and the Canadian/North American media did the rest.

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    At the rink. Again. mskater93's Avatar
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    I think it's only the Canadian media since he was soundly called out by the US media for his poor media skills....

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    I have seen Patrick live and he really does have great skating skills--nice deep edges, great acceleration, etc.

    However, I would have to agree with dorispulaski's point that Patrick's PCS would be less problematic if different components were graded directly from the performance rather than incrementally from the Skating Skills mark. When I saw Patrick live, he did fall multiple times and had some bobbles, and his performance and interpretation ability were clearly affected by his mistakes.

    Unfortunately, when looking at the protocols, quite a few of the judges marked his PE and IN marks more or less the same as his (high) SS marks.

    So I would say that Patrick does deserve high SS, but not always high PCS overall.
    Last edited by evangeline; 11-02-2010 at 07:46 AM. Reason: spelling error

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    I have been priveliged to hear judges themselves discuss Patrick's skating, and they rave about where he is on the blade in relation to the timing of his knee bends and pushes. He can actually increase speed without pushing by using his knees and edges. His edges are completely true without any incorrect bending at the hip in the lean. The timing of the exchange of weight when he changes feet is perfect and there isn't another skater in the world (and there hasn't been for some time) that can skate like this.
    The quality of his transitions and turns and crossovers etc. are a result of this skill, not just that he does them well in themselves like most skaters. That's what the judges apparently see, that most of us can't fully appreciate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by trains View Post
    ...and there isn't another skater in the world (and there hasn't been for some time) that can skate like this.
    What about ice dancers?

    And that is the problem. Over emphasising skating skills while diluting the other elements. It won't be men's figure skating.

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    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    What about ice dancers?

    And that is the problem. Over emphasising skating skills while diluting the other elements. It won't be men's figure skating.
    .....and is Men's skating about stopping, posing and blowing a kiss to the crowd?
    Where does that compute in the CoP? I guess some fans think it is the same as a transition preceeding a difficult jump.

    But it is not.
    Neither is a pelvic thrust part of competitive skating when used for posing purposes.

    These gimmicks have nothing to do with competitive skating but perhaps have a place in show skating.
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-02-2010 at 08:32 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    .....and is Men's skating about stopping, posing and blowing a kiss to the crowd?
    Where does that compute in the CoP? I guess some fans think it is the same as a transition preceeding a difficult jump.

    But it is not.
    Neither is a pelvic thrust part of competitive skating when used for posing purposes.

    These gimmicks have nothing to do with competitive skating but perhaps have a place in show skating.
    Good gracious! It's the ever lasting defending point, isn't it? Even when Plushenko and Joubert are nowhere near the picture. Even when Plushenko is not competing and Joubert is not in the same competition. I just marvel the power of the kiss and the pelvic thrust. Obviously it worked, because you'll never forget about them and mentioned them sooooo often. It must be counted into P/E if they are so outstanding in the memory and important to you.

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    One thing about Patrick's skating that is perhaps sometimes overlooked is his speed. He is a faster than several other top skaters.

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    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by trains View Post
    * whole post *
    Thank you, train, for explaining so well some of the nuances that go into "skating skills."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    What about ice dancers?

    And that is the problem. Over emphasising skating skills while diluting the other elements. It won't be men's figure skating.
    Interesting that you should mention ice dancers. I've always thought Patrick would be a great ice dancer, if he were perhaps a little taller. He's also made me think a lot of Kurt Browning, and how he uses the blade and edges and so on. Kurt is mesmerizing when he skates, even when there isn't a single jump included. And he is extremely popular, many years into his professional career. I completely disagree that greater emphasis on skating elements dilutes men's skating. I think it builds a more complete skater. If I were to conjure up an ideal champion, it would be someone with jumps, but just as much the spins, edges, transitions, turns, footwork, etc. As Patrick matures, I think he will be this champion. While he works on solidifying his jumps (and he does have some nice jumps, just not always consistent), he already is perhaps the best in the world on the rest. I'm not a skater myself, but I know those who have seen him live and are coaches and judges do rave about the brilliance of Patrick in the quality of his skating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    .....and is Men's skating about stopping, posing and blowing a kiss to the crowd?
    Where does that compute in the CoP? I guess some fans think it is the same as a transition preceeding a difficult jump.

    But it is not.
    Neither is a pelvic thrust part of competitive skating when used for posing purposes.

    These gimmicks have nothing to do with competitive skating but perhaps have a place in show skating.
    Since there is a component named PERFORMANCE, I would say that the blowing kiss and the pelvic thrust have their place in competitive skating. I know they can´t match Chan´s falls who clearly entertained the judges more than anything and it´s also true that blowing a kiss to the crowd is not as difficult as kissing the ice. So yes, Chan is definitely the best performer and has the most difficult transitions.

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    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    While Patrick has the edge and skating skills of an excellent dancer, until he develops an ability to relate to his music, it's a good thing he is not. Of course he could get a very emotive partner, say Maia Shibutani, who's small enough for him, and it could perhaps work. But he'd need to have more upper body strength for the lifts.

    Actually his jumps aren't that good, which is why he has problems with them. In his LP at SC, most of them were not particularly good: Not only the fall on the 3A-
    The second 3A wasn't good enough on the landing to put the 3t on it, so he had to settle for a 2t
    The 3f has a wonky landing and got negative GOE from one judge and 0 from several others
    The 3Lo3T that he threw in (to compensate for an earlier jump that was supposed to have a 3t on it) had an and underrotated 3T and yielded negative GOE from most of the judges
    The 3lz 2S sequences was supposed to be a 3lz 3s sequence.
    His best jump in the program was the 4T.

    I don't know whether it's a timing issue or a nerves issue.

    While his spins are OK, they aren't that special. Kevin Reynolds' final spin was more interesting to me than anything Patrick showed (shame on you Lori Nichol).

    He's sort of the Trixie Schuba of MITF instead of compulsory figures. Well not as bad at jumping as Trixie, but the same idea.
    He's very good indeed at what he's good at but not the very best at other things.
    And he really does not relate to his music or to the character he's supposed to be portraying particularly, which was flaw of Trixie's as well.
    I've thought in the past that those things would come, and he's still rather young and very talented, so they may yet come.

    But in the meantime, I feel like there ought to be a Chan rule about how to grade the PCS-in fact there already is such a rule. The judges need to start using it.l Grade the components separately.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dorispulaski View Post
    While Patrick has the edge and skating skills of an excellent dancer, until he develops an ability to relate to his music, it's a good thing he is not. .

    .
    I don't know about that. Chan's SP is looking musical to me and although his three mistakes should have cost him more, I thought the IN and CH was good.

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