Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Art in the sense of figure skating is based on opinions, and it is based only within the millieu of Figure Skating. Nothing wrong with that. We know it is not compared with the Great Artists (Painting, Music, etc.). Problem with figure skating competitions is that the PC scores are determined by 9 judges in a panel set in a competition, and as we recently acknowledged, no two panels are alike. So we can't conclude which of the opinionated PC scores would really show the most artistic skater. We could easily say which skater gave the best presentation of PCs in one particular contest and even another at the season's end.

I doubt an Artistry Judge from Sotheby's would sit on a FS panel, any more than he would sit as a judge for a Pagaent. Joe Inman was a stickler for music (as I am) but I don't know if he is still judging. He was correct. When Plushenko incorporated transitions before his big jumps, the landings were wonky.

I believe most Figure Skating fans love their 'Artistry' moreso than their big tech tricks. Some fans like it as a Sport but far fewer than the 'artistry' fans. I think of figure skating as a form of Dance along with Tap, Character, Modern, Ballet, Acrobatic. and except for opinon, difficult to quantify in terms of scoring. Separate the Tech from the 'Artistry'.

Haven't the demographics always shown that skating is primarily viewed by women on TV in the USA?
They have left in droves and I think you are right. They don't care as much for the CoP's efforts to make skating more of a sport and less of an art.

As to art judges - I didn't really have a buyer or appraiser from Sotheby's in mind. :)
And certainly not a composer - since skaters do not compose music. I agree with you and think of freeskating as a form more like Dance.

We heard views from a Dancer about Yuna and Mao and they were totally opposite of what the Olympic judges thought.
Was she wrong about everything and does it matter? Does the CoP reward certain characteristics of Mao properly or see them as being the same as Yuna and Joannie.

IMO, Mao has some parts of her skating that Yuna and Joannie can't equal. I don't know if the judges see it too or if it is applicable under the rules. The Duchesnays did things differently and struggled with marks because of it.

Mao does not feel persecuted to me - but perhaps a bit underappreciated. I thought Yuna won in Vancouver - but not by such a wide margin and think the judges got it wrong.

Most of us in one way or other think they got the Men wrong in Vancouver. BTW, controversy and people talking about results are usually seen as good for a sport. Skating certainly has that part right - now if they could get more people to care they would have something.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Haven't the demographics always shown that skating is primarily viewed by women on TV in the USA?
They have left in droves and I think you are right. They don't care as much for the CoP's efforts to make skating more of a sport and less of an art.

But the skating itself does. It has to be categorized as a sport in order to be included in Olympics. So it is mainly a sport, and it should be.

I like the weight of TES 70% and PC 30%. Without the effort of making it a sport, figure skating will be like pro skating and all the cheesefests on TV. It's a lot less attractive to many skating fans.
 
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NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
If skating is all about entertaining audiences, why not find, or develop, good performers with just enough technical skating ability to support their performances and choreograph entertaining shows on ice? That's what the broadcasters aiming for maximum numbers of eyeballs would like, especially if there's also a competitive format to add drama to the show.

But if skating is about technical sport, aiming for faster higher stronger in its own terms, which for figure skating also means greatest control of the edges, then the rules and format can't favor the twisting and the dancing at the expense of the edge-based skills.

The Olympic movement will reject figure skating if it becomes too much about the dancing without technique. There were frequent threats from the Olympic side in the 1990s to get rid of ice dancing because it was too subjective to be a real sport. Officials and fans from other sports who aren't interested in arts might like to see skating be all about difficult tricks and not understand what the edges or the music have to do with anything.

So the ISU needs to balance demands from the jock audience and the artsy audience with the integrity of its own edge-based sport. And I would hope they would do more to encourage audiences to understand the edge techniques and not just be wowed by flashy tricks and dancing.


Outstanding post!!! This is the essence of the entire thread - and the constant pushing and pulling in audiences as to whether one skater is better than the other, a skater being perceived as being robbed, and so on. It all depends what side - jock audience or artsy audience - the poster tends to belong.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
IMO, Mao has some parts of her skating that Yuna and Joannie can't equal. I don't know if the judges see it too or if it is applicable under the rules. The Duchesnays did things differently and struggled with marks because of it.

Good point. I think someone mentioned this in another thread about the lack of variety in skating styles under the CoP, at least when it comes to ladies. And I kind of agree that the CoP pushes a certain standard of what they want from a ladies skater. So now everyone is trying to emulate this standard style so they would be rewarded with points but as a result, it kills much of the originality.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Jan Hoffmann is a surgeon in real life. I don't know what kind of background he has in music, but he is known as an "artistic" judge because he consistently comes down on the side of beautiful programs over high tech. He voted for Michelle over Tara in 1998, and for Oksana over Nancy in 1994.

Yes, he definetely seems to appreciate artistic skaters, which is wonderful considering that he as a skater coud not be described as artistic. I remember him, he was very young as he started to compete in men´s competitions.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I really believe that artistic fans maybe forget the fact that figure skating is actually a sport, once you get involved you know it will be marks to judge technical ability and athletes of any sport have usually the mindset to reach the objective goals first, and the technical part is more clear, artistry is not a chocolate you buy and say now I have artistry, they can improve on their extention, choreo, interpretation, anything to make their performance better etc but it is something you cannot control much, charisma cant be fixed, of course since fugure skating give marks to this aspect as well, it gets more complicated. But if you havent reached the technical rewuirements then you cannot get involved in a sport.
You can shine nevertheless in the gala or show.
A gymnast or diver might have the opinion that Plushenko or Reynolds should win because of the most twists in the air with the best technique. A speedskater might believe that Kim or Kostner should win on account of maintaining the best average skating speed. An American Idol judge might believe that Nagasu should win because she connected with the audience best. Or whatever.

Ha, I just found the sourse reason for my fandom! And Thank you for your posts :)

But isnt it this magic that not all gymnasts for example like Plushenko and Reynolds and Joubert and Goebel and whoever we want to label technical skater at the same time and not all people love Abott and Rippon and Lambiel? I think any skater leaves more on the ice than just techinque. Otherwise we would be like two different teams, the artictic fans and the technical ones. Like in gymnastics, an athlete can inspire you for 10 different things.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Yes, he definetely seems to appreciate artistic skaters, which is wonderful considering that he as a skater could not be described as artistic. I remember him, he was very young as he started to compete in men´s competitions.

Here's Jan! Yeah, Hoffmann's strenght was figures, compared to the artistiuc free skating of his principle rival, Robin Cousins

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q4sqw04PLPY

gkelly said:
*post 180 above*

And the Pulitzer prize for most insightful and impassioned post on the subject of figure skating goes to... :bow: :bow: :bow:

This discussion, sport or entertainment, raises the question, what is it that makes sports entertaining in the first place? Why is it entertaining to watch grown men throw a rubber ball into a basket 30 feet away, or swatting at a horsehide ball with a stick?

Why do we like watching someone trying to swim the length of a pool faster than someone else? (Then they change the distance and we rush in to watch them do it again.)
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
This discussion, sport or entertainment, raises the question, what is it that makes sports entertaining in the first place?
reminded of my mum who says how silly is to watch 22 men running behind a ball.:laugh:

Many reasons besides entertainment I think. I m talking for the pure athletic side. I believe people watch sports for the excitement it brings for things you might not be able to do, or something you were/are doing also and feel connected, the awe to watch the power of human body even when you are not doing any psysical activity yourself, the feeling of a competition itself, the unknown result of who will win-thats why people in many sports mostly root for winners and also I think being a sport fan feels like belonging in a worldwide team. And finally watching someone else's triumph is a much healthier version of the reason people watch realities. And then again women beach volley is very popular in Greece;)

But for each one is different, and I know many people who dont watch any sport. And I do think concerning another discussion we had, knowing the rules plays huge part in watching a sport regularly. And personality plays a big role, I was bored in tennis and I was in awe when I watched badminton in Olympics. It looked to me like they were playing with a butterfly:)
 
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Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Outstanding post!!! This is the essence of the entire thread - and the constant pushing and pulling in audiences as to whether one skater is better than the other, a skater being perceived as being robbed, and so on. It all depends what side - jock audivence or artsy audience - the poster tends to belong.
That seems to be the answer, I agree. More women even watch figure skating live than men do, as well as on TV. It's the gender gap. Women who watch Ballet are 10-1 over Men, but in Opera, it's the Men 10-1 over the Women.

There is only one way to Judge a Figure Skating Competition and that is to make it into two competitions showing Techncal and a separate one showing Artistry. That is not done in present day skating comps. The SP which is supposed to show tech prowess can easily be won by artistry in the same SP comp. Of course, money is involved.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
This discussion, sport or entertainment, raises the question, what is it that makes sports entertaining in the first place? Why is it entertaining to watch grown men throw a rubber ball into a basket 30 feet away, or swatting at a horsehide ball with a stick?

Why do we like watching someone trying to swim the length of a pool faster than someone else? (Then they change the distance and we rush in to watch them do it again.)

Swimming has never been a staple of sports entertainment on TV. I didn't look up any numbers but judging by the amount of broadcasts.......

"Saturday night NBC airs Live the NCAA swimming championships......." :laugh: :laugh:

Retired baseball player John Kruk, when challenged about his protruding waistline and lack of footspeed said, "I am not an athlete I'm a baseball player." :cool:

"When skating becomes as entertaining as it was in the past the primetime broadcasts will resume."
Quoting myself :biggrin:

All hail King Evan Lysacek, the living example and purest representative of the CoP.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Where does this come from?

I would have placed Dai first in Vancouver. Using my outdated scoring system Dai would have been Olympic champion based on his artistry. IMO he showed the best presentation of overall skating skills
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I would have placed Dai first in Vancouver. Using my outdated scoring system Dai would have been Olympic champion based on his artistry. IMO he showed the best presentation of overall skating skills

That's true. But I don't think Lysacek's win was a pure product of CoP. If you say 2006 Olympics Plushenko's win was, I would agree with you. I think Lysacek's win was more of a political product. JMO.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Doesnt the broadcast depend on the country? Actually we get pretty much a lot of swimming competitions on tv..and competitions of sailing, not any baseball though.
And as much as I complain, oddly enough we get Euros, Worlds and Olys in figure skating regularly since 1994... so I m not complaining much. :biggrin: Recently I learnt we have a national champion in fs, people saw him on one next top model episode:laugh:
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
OnEntertainment, I would say sports and theatrics are a diversion from real life. Hard working people and people with anxiety need something to relax themselves. They find the time to watch Sports as well as Theatre productions. It's the people's choice on what they choose. In America, team sports lead the pack on sports; and movies lead the pack on theatrics.

Figure Skating which has a bit of both sport and theatrics within its framework seems to me to clash between the diverse forms of entertainment. Most fans are enamored with the performance of the sport and do not wish to separate the two parts. Those fans have found new and interesting music in their lives and want to watch skaters perform to it especially on television. Other, who travel to FS venues, enjoy the 'show' and the commeraderie of the spectators.

The two types of fans love the fact that there is a 'show' in the SP as well as in the LP, and are adament about not changing that. They use the old format of School Figures in a PC named Skating Skills. Skating Skills are definitely a technical term which were separated in the origins of Figure Skating. Then it was called School Figures, and was kept separate from the Presentation.
The times! they were achanging!

Figure Skating became popular in the US and Europe because of Sonia Henie movies - not because of Sport but because of the glamor of it all.

Since big bucks are involved in skating, I do not see any chance for a Technical sport. That SP is one big joke and money maker, imo.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Wow, I didn't know that Jan Hoffmann competed at the 1968 Olympics at age TWELVE!

Joeesitz said:
The two types of fans love the fact that there is a 'show' in the SP as well as in the LP, and are adamant about not changing that. They use the old format of School Figures in a PC named Skating Skills. Skating Skills are definitely a technical term which were separated in the origins of Figure Skating. Then it was called School Figures, and was kept separate from the Presentation.

The times! they were achanging!...

Great post, and a very interesting perspective. So maybe the right way to look at CoP scoring is something like this. There are three aspects to consider.

(1) Technique. This is the blade-on-ice part. Formerly figures, now incorporated into Skating Skills and Transitions. Counts for 20% of the total score.

(2) Circus tricks (jumps, etc.) This aspect gradually became more and more important until, under 6.0, it was practically everything. The CoP, in its advertised quest for a balanced program, reduced the value of highlight elements to 50% of the total.

(3) Pageantry. Costumes, music, choreography and the like. Now counts for 30& of the score under the headings Performance/Execution, Choreography/Composition, and Interpretation.

So it might make sense to have three separate components to a competition. A technical part, a jumping part, and a performance part.
 
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