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Thread: Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I don't know about that. Chan's SP is looking musical to me and although his three mistakes should have cost him more, I thought the IN and CH was good.
    Hey, your comment disappeared!

  2. #17
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ciocio View Post
    Hey, your comment disappeared!
    I decided to delete it. Am trying to walk "on the sunny side of the street" more often though it is not always easy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECYuEEzRWdE

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by trains View Post
    I have been priveliged to hear judges themselves discuss Patrick's skating, and they rave about where he is on the blade in relation to the timing of his knee bends and pushes. He can actually increase speed without pushing by using his knees and edges. His edges are completely true without any incorrect bending at the hip in the lean. The timing of the exchange of weight when he changes feet is perfect and there isn't another skater in the world (and there hasn't been for some time) that can skate like this.
    I would actually say that almost all of this is true of Takahiko Kozuka as well. His edges aren't quite as deep as Patrick's, but then, he doesn't fall on his rear doing footwork as often. In all other ways, IMO, his skating skills are every bit as good. Actually, I think Kozuka is better at accelerating than Patrick. And having seen them both live, I'd much rather watch Kozuka. As wonderful as Patrick's skills are, all his programs are constructed in a way that makes it hard to appreciate them, because all the moves are so frenetic and don't relate to the music at all, it's just as many brackets and rockers/counters crammed together as possible, so he gets a really high transitions score. There's no time to actually enjoy anything. The MITF are all there to get points, and that's it.

    The main difference between their skating skills, IMO, is that Kozuka doesn't have a relentless, highly coordinated media machine and a famous choreographer pushing him to the judges, and telling them what to drool over and value. Patrick Chan has really amazing basics, it's true. But just like Plushenko isn't actually the best jumper of all time, the gap between Patrick's skating skills and everyone else has been built up into something bigger than the reality.
    Last edited by doubleflutz; 11-02-2010 at 12:59 PM. Reason: more appropriate wording

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I decided to delete it. Am trying to walk "on the sunny side of the street" more often though it is not always easy.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECYuEEzRWdE
    Good decision, watching Putin in press conference isn´t adviseble, no matter how many girlie kisses he might blow.

  5. #20
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Another benefit Chan has received is being his nation's unequivocal #1 male singles skater. Had Jeff Buttle continued to compete, I wonder if Patrick's PCS would be as high as they are. Abbott has always had Lysacek to compete with in being considered his nation's #1. Kozuka has always had Takahashi or Oda to compete with in being his nation's #1. We all know politics exist in figure skating.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Another benefit Chan has received is being his nation's unequivocal #1 male singles skater. Had Jeff Buttle continued to compete, I wonder if Patrick's PCS would be as high as they are. Abbott has always had Lysacek to compete with in being considered his nation's #1. Kozuka has always had Takahashi or Oda to compete with in being his nation's #1. We all know politics exist in figure skating.
    Good points.

  7. #22
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    Miss Jeff...

  8. #23
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    Nothing should be read into his Skate Chanada scores as it is clearly a silly and heavily political event catered to the Canadian skaters, and most of all their stars like Chan. Had the event been held anywhere but Canada, Chan would have been lucky to place even 3rd with everyone doing the same performances, and if he skates like that at Worlds in Japan he will finish 7th after a 16th place finish in the short program.

  9. #24
    Beliver in Sasha's Perfect Program Tinymavy15's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nylynnr View Post
    One thing about Patrick's skating that is perhaps sometimes overlooked is his speed. He is a faster than several other top skaters.
    yes, he is rather fast, and that is one thing judges cant resist. Carolina, Yu-na Kim both are fast skaters and their PCS are through the roof. While I agree that speed often makes a program look much better and the skater appear more confident I can't say that this is the overwhelling factor in making a performance good or not. Patrick does not have great flow coming out of his jumps, as Nobu and Kozuka do. His triple axel gets a lot of ice coverage, but some of the other triples are not very big or powerful.

    Although he has great edge control, he does not seem to be able to really get into the character of a piece. He skates to the music, but not to the emotion of the music. In that way he is very different than Sasha who always skated to the music, but also played a character inspired by emotions of the music. Patrick is not a performer, he seems introverted in a Johnny-like way on the ice (although Take 5 is a nice step away from that). Personally I perfer a skater such as Daisuke who will perform the music, not just skate to the rhythm.

    I have watched Chan live. He is more impressive live than on TV, he does have presence on the ice, but certainly not more so than Brian Joubert or certainly not Dai.

  10. #25
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Patrick is not as impressive for his speed as Carolina-she can run rings about everyone else on the ice in most groupings. I haven't seen Yu Na live (it's evident from TV that she is also fast) to know whether Carolina is faster, but certainly faster than anyone else I've seen live. Patrick is noticeably faster than Ryan Bradley, for example, (one reason among several that Ryan's skating skills should be significantly lower than Patrick's) but not to some of the other skaters out there. He doesn't stand out in a warmup goup for speed in the way Carolina does. He's speedy, but not jawdropping, IMO.

  11. #26
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    Probably my post will be very strongly-worded, still I think everyone has a right to express his/her opinion.

    Should not the "Skating Ability" also include the stability in completing the strong elements? How can judges give Chan high marks for the "Skating Skills" when he failed on the most important elements like a novice junior skater? "Skills" means the mastery to skate without errors on important competitions. Otherwise the skating with 3 falls in Short Program means the complete lack of mastery and skating skills.

    It is said that Chan has the transitions. What is the transition? - It is one-two extra rotations or some simple steps on two feet. So if someone had a transition but failed to complete the jump that followed it - how could he be marked higher than a skater who had no transition but landed the quad?

    For me Chan is the only skater who I feel very strong antipathy to. There are many reasons for that: his self-praised interviews, his look (short with short legs), his apelike movements, lack of artistic skills. I think that skaters like Chan are the mockery of men figure skating. Men skating is not dancing on ice, it is mostly the strongest elements, many revolution jumps, etc.
    It is very sad that now Canadian FS Federation with its great traditions in men skating has to promote such poor skater like Chan. The results of SP at Skate Canada are really painful. Daisuke Takahashi failed on one jump at the Olympics and he was immediately placed lower than he deserved. Chan had 4 falls, failed to complete 3 jumps and won the competion!! How unfair to other skaters who managed to complete all hard elements and skated really well. So are the "skating skills" of Oda, Rippon, Rainolds are much-much worse? If they loose to someone with 4 falls including a fall on 3A, looks like they (Oda, Rippon, Reynolds, Fernandez, Preaubert) cannot skate at all.

    On different forums I read a lot of criticism and attacks on the Russian FS Federation for some stair-work. OK, please explain how should we call this promotion of Chan then?
    Last edited by Ellen; 11-03-2010 at 05:08 AM.

  12. #27
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    Ellen, you have a very good point, and I am glad you will see for yourself Patrick Chan's skating at COR in a few weeks time, to judge for yourself how good he is skating live, or isn't as the case may be, lol.

    As for myself, like I said before, I saw him live at the Olympics, and I was impressed, which I duly admit. But not so much impressed that I think he has a 4 fall advantage over the rest of the field, no way. One fall, yes, two falls, not for anybody, I don't care who it is you're out. A fall demonstrates weakness, either mentally or technically, or both, *not* mastery.

    A poster at another forum actually summed it up perfectly for me when he stated the following:

    My problem is, I find the SP to be "sacred". The SP is about "required" technical elements that must be done. Falls don't belong in the SP. To me, falls in the SP should come with a higher penalty since they are required elements.

    Still, I'm not really stressed out over this competition, it's done, over with, time to move on for me. But if this had happened at the Olympics (which it would never have done so), then I would have been outraged. But these GP events seriously do not reflect what will actually happen at Worlds, but most especially the Olympics, where the standard is on another plane, a higher playing field. These GPs favor their own, be it SC, SA, COR, NHK, et al. I've come to accept it, though I disagree for the most part. But what can you do? C'est la vie...

  13. #28
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    A part of the answer to the question of the first post is in Lynn's article on IN:

    Chan acknowledged his role as a judges' favorite, saying he's grateful to be recognized for his skating skills.
    "It's a good position to be in," he said. "I know [coach and choreographer] Lori [Nichol] speaks highly of me to judges, and I want to perform the way she says I can."


    I personally don't like these lobbying by choreograhpers to the judges.
    It should only be genuine competition of performances on the ice and not anything off-ice.
    Figure skating becoming a competition of lobbying in a sad thing.

  14. #29
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    Ellen

    At Vancouver, Daisuke not only fell, but his quad toe was severely under-rotaed. His 3F-3T combination was downgraded, he received edge call on the lutz twice, his last step sequence was out of sync with the music, and lost balance and stepped out in the final combination spin (Lv2). His TES was therefore quite low, but he received the highest PCS of the day to make up for it.

    I love Dai and I personally believe his Oly performance was wonderful enough to justify the PCS. But it is my personal opinion. I can also understand if some other, who has different preference / taste / whatever, think it was unfair and unjustifiable due to a number of technical faults - a bit like Patrick's SP at SC, although he fully rotated all jumps despite fall and received level 3/4 for his spins.

    I also wish you had not listed your personal preference on skater's look as one of the reasons for disliking him in the thread, in which we are meant to be discussing his skating skills.
    Last edited by mot; 11-03-2010 at 07:00 AM.

  15. #30
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    From Ellen:
    "Should not the "Skating Ability" also include the stability in completing the strong elements? How can judges give Chan high marks for the "Skating Skills" when he failed on the most important elements like a novice junior skater? "Skills" means the mastery to skate without errors on important competitions. Otherwise the skating with 3 falls in Short Program means the complete lack of mastery and skating skills."
    Ellen: your make good points that make sense but the reality is that the completion of the jumps is scored on the technical side of the report card and the skating skills are scored separately on the component side.
    Looking at the competition report card, you can tell by looking at the skating skills mark versus the technical marks who was a strong skater that did not skate well, and who was a weaker skater that had a great day technically. Sometimes one beats the other and visa versa. It depends on how the points add up.
    But never underestimate that skating skills mark. That is what the judges really think of the skaters' ability, whether or not they landed any or all of their jumps. How many times have we heard "well he/she can do all these jumps but they can't skate" from the judges. This means skating skills, and they still look to that to set their base line for judging a skater. That was where the old 6.0 system got all fudgy and questionable. It made that kind of evaluation too obscure and to easy to maipulate. At least now the skaters are also clearly accountable for their jumps etc. in separated points catagories, and we can read on paper what actually happened in the program.
    It is said that Chan has the transitions. What is the transition? - It is one-two extra rotations or some simple steps on two feet. So if someone had a transition but failed to complete the jump that followed it - how could he be marked higher than a skater who had no transition but landed the quad?
    You're right transitions are turns and steps between elements, but that catagory also takes into account how well they are done. Did the skater step from a clean back outside edge completely to a clean forward outside edge? Or was it just a vague backward step to a vague forward step? etc. It takes a highly trained eye to see this. Some combinations of transitions are much more difficult than others and all are more difficult with speed, like anything. And you are also absolutely right that the jumps should be completed as well. Put it all together and you have the perfect skater! I think we may never see that!
    I also think that Carolina Kostner is the best ladies "skater" by far. But she can't always put it together either.

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