Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

[Ellen]

Still, I'm not really stressed out over this competition, it's done, over with, time to move on for me. But if this had happened at the Olympics (which it would never have done so), then I would have been outraged. But these GP events seriously do not reflect what will actually happen at Worlds, but most especially the Olympics, where the standard is on another plane, a higher playing field. These GPs favor their own, be it SC, SA, COR, NHK, et al.

Nadine, I have to disagree with you on both points.
1. This HAD already happened at the Olympics. Chan was places above Weir, very unfair. I heard T.Tarasova's comments at the Olympics TV broadcast of men LP and can quote her as saying that "judges always have given him too high marks "...

2. GP events are important because skaters get their rating scores. At Worlds they will be placed at groups according to their current ratings. Now Chan has a wrongly high rating, he stands above Oda, etc. Judges take the skater current rating into account, no doubt.

[gkelly]

Should not the "Skating Ability" also include the stability in completing the strong elements? How can judges give Chan high marks for the "Skating Skills" when he failed on the most important elements like a novice junior skater? "Skills" means the mastery to skate without errors on important competitions. Otherwise the skating with 3 falls in Short Program means the complete lack of mastery and skating skills.

No, that's not what Skating Skills means in terms of the program components. It's specifically defined as
Balance, rhythmic knee action, and precision of foot placement
Flow and effortless glide
Cleanness and sureness of deep edges, steps, and turns
Varied use of power/energy, speed, and acceleration
Multi directional skating
Mastery of one foot skating

See: http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/...-0-file,00.pdf

See the discussion in the current COP thread. Mathman suggested renaming this component to something like "Stroking and Edgework" to avoid just that kind of confusion.

And novice skaters don't attempt quads, triple axels, or level 4 footwork; junior skaters very rarely. Failing on those elements doesn't make a skater look like a less advanced skater -- it makes the skater look like an advanced skater who failed on a difficult, high-risk element.

It is said that Chan has the transitions. What is the transition? - It is one-two extra rotations or some simple steps on two feet. So if someone had a transition but failed to complete the jump that followed it - how could he be marked higher than a skater who had no transition but landed the quad?

No, transitions are everything that happens in the program between the elements. The short program is 2:50 in length. Only about 5 seconds or so of that time are spent in the air -- counting the time spent in immediate takeoffs and landings, and in spin and step sequence elements, which each take more time than the jumps, that still leaves about half the program time for getting between one element of the next.

That can include difficult turns and steps as well as simple ones, glides in difficult positions like spread eagles or shoot-the-ducks, nonlisted jumps like split jumps and walleys, and direct connections between elements (e.g., stepping from the last step of the step sequence directly into double axel or spin, or from the landing of a jump directly into a spin).

The criteria for judging transitions are Difficulty, Variety, Intricacy, and Quality.

Try looking at all the stuff the skater is doing between the jumps and spins and official step sequence. Are they doing a lot of turns in both directions and often changing direction (forward-backward, and clockwise-counterclockwise) unexpectedly? rockers, counters, brackets, loops, choctaws, outside mohawks as well as three turns and inside mohawks? toe steps, edge pulls, etc., for variety? Do they include highlight moves like half jumps or extended glides in position? How difficult is that position, and how well is the move performed? How often do they do these moves immediately before or immediately on the exit of the required elements, or go directly from one element to another?

Skaters who do all of the above and do it well deserve high Transitions scores. Let's hope all the judges notice and reward them appropriately.

Some skaters use no more one-two extra rotations or some simple steps on two feet in their programs, and a bunch of crossovers and other simple stroking or posing. Those are the skaters that should lose points for transitions.

This thread is about Chan, but I don't want to get specific about one skater. Just to point out that if you want to try to understand the scoring, it helps to have a more accurate idea of the rules and guidelines the panels are using to come up with those scores.

[figureskatingfan22]

Thanks for all your input. One problem with Chan is IMO that the casual viewer can't measure his extraordinary skating skills. And he's not such an expressive, emotional and / or interesting performer like some of his competitors. Therefore the casual or not-so-knowledgeable viewer can't understand his high scores. Plushenko also dominated for some time and was not liked by everybody, but since he was very good at jumping, the casual viewer could somewhat understand his dominance. It's different with Chan whose greatness is for the most part only understood by experts.

[ciocio]

Thanks for all your input. One problem with Chan is IMO that the casual viewer can't measure his extraordinary skating skills. And he's not such an expressive, emotional and / or interesting performer like some of his competitors. Therefore the casual or not-so-knowledgeable viewer can't understand his high scores. Plushenko also dominated for some time and was not liked by everybody, but since he was very good at jumping, the casual viewer could somewhat understand his dominance. It's different with Chan whose greatness is for the most part only understood by experts.

That´s funny! Are you joking? According to your description the only thing than Chan has are extraordinary skating skills (which is absolutely true), you suggest that´s enough to get high scores, despite the falls, crappy performance, etc ??????

[Blades of Passion]

At Vancouver, Daisuke not only fell, but his quad toe was severely under-rotaed. His 3F-3T combination was downgraded, he received edge call on the lutz twice, his last step sequence was out of sync with the music, and lost balance and stepped out in the final combination spin (Lv2). His TES was therefore quite low, but he received the highest PCS of the day to make up for it.

His Quad was not severely under-rotated. Look at where he leaves the ice in comparison to many other skaters who did the Quad. His amount of rotation in the air on the Quad was MORE than Jeremy Abbott's, and Abbott didn't get downgraded on his Quad at the Olympics. The downgrade on the 3F-3T was also not accurate. Tech controllers tend to have a thing about downgrading jumps that have noticable flaws on the landing. Two jumps can have exactly the same rotation, but if one of them had some kind of other problem on the landing, they'll generally downgrade it. The calls on the Lutz were "!" and not "e" and those jumps didn't deserve the -GOE they received. They were better Lutzes than Plushenko's and Plushenko received +1 GOE for his first crooked Lutz and didn't receive any -GOE for his second Lutz that was tilted in the air and wobbled on the landing (it was landed on the wrong edge).

Takahashi's step sequence was not out of sync with the music, at least not anymore than anyone else's, that's an odd assertion. Nor did he step out of his final combination spin. He was attempting to do a change-of-edge in his Layback, which is quite difficult, and he just wobbled a bit. The spin already was at a Level 3 (backwards entrance, crossfoot position, catch-foot sit spin), so even if you don't count the change-of-edge as a feature because of the wobble, the spin shouldn't have been called as Level 2. That is unless you don't count his position in the sit spin as a feature, but if you're not going to count Takahashi's, then Lysacek and Plushenko's lazy "cannonball" positions most CERTAINLY should not have been counted either.

Takahashi got screwed over in the TES mark at Olympics.

[Mathman]

That´s funny! Are you joking? According to your description the only thing than Chan has are extraordinary skating skills (which is absolutely true), you suggest that´s enough to get high scores, despite the falls, crappy performance, etc ?

Well, that is the topic of the thread -- does Patrick have extraordinary Skating Skills.

So..yes.

Does he have outstanding Transitions? Yes

Does he have outstanding P/E, CH and INT? There seems to be a difference of opinion on these components. The consensus seems to be that these are areas where he can improve.

One problem with Chan is IMO that the casual viewer can't measure his extraordinary skating skills.

As a decided non-expert, I have to disagree a little bit here. True, the average fan can't judge whether his center of gravity maintains a perfect balance over the center of the blade, and things like that. But I do think the average fan can watch his feet and see that he is doing a lot of cool stuff that other skaters don't.

[demarinis5]

--Snip--

As a decided non-expert, I have to disagree a little bit here. True, the average fan can't judge whether his center of gravity maintains a perfect balance over the center of the blade, and things like that. But I do think the average fan can watch his feet and see that he is doing a lot of cool stuff that other skaters don't.

Agreed. I am so busy watching Patrick's feet (amazing) I sometimes lose my concentration on what is going on above the waist.

[wallylutz]

I think Kozuka and Oda have very soft knees which make their landings look very smooth. However, that is far from the only thing to consider in Skating Skills. Chan is not tall but Kozuka and Oda are dwarf like based on North American standard - this is not a criticism, just an observation having seen both skated live many times. In any event, Oda's SS mark isn't very far apart from that of Chan at Skate Canada, his closest component category compared to Chan's. When people cite it here as a justification of their perceived injustice, it comes across as stretching the reality to me. Most posters here are very smart and knowledgeable in my view, there is no reason why they shouldn't know better to deliberately ignore other factors they know very well in their arguments. I think many here are not entirely honest in their assessment and rather let their own emotions overcome their logic. Even tony Wheeler's posted grading of the top 3 at SC and his written justification left a lot to be desired. He would have failed the evaluation process when he suggested that judges were too lenient on Chan's GOE when he himself failed to explain and include the other factors to be considered in making up the grading of GOE on a jump, which is not solely based on the stability of landing. Reading Mr. Wheeler's review, he ended up understating the correct GOE vs. what judges gave precisely b/c his thinking process wasn't thorough enough.

[doubleflutz]

I think Kozuka and Oda have very soft knees which make their landings look very smooth. However, that is far from the only thing to consider in Skating Skills. Chan is not tall but Kozuka and Oda are dwarf like based on North American standard - this is not a criticism, just an observation having seen both skated live many times.

So... Chan has better Skating Skills than the Japanese guys because he's tall, is that what you're saying here? Because I really can't think of what else you could possibly be implying there. Or are you saying that Chan should effectively get bonus GOE on his jumps because he's tall, and it's harder to jump the taller you are? That would certainly help Evan Lysacek if he decides to come back.

When people cite it here as a justification of their perceived injustice, it comes across as stretching the reality to me. Most posters here are very smart and knowledgeable in my view, there is no reason why they shouldn't know better to deliberately ignore other factors they know very well in their arguments. I think many here are not entirely honest in their assessment and rather let their own emotions overcome their logic.

I could say pretty much the exact same thing to all the impassioned (and often Canadian!) defenses of Chan going on around the net. There are many, many reasons why I personally think that Patrick Chan was overscored at Skate Canada, and his Skating Skills are pretty much the least of them. Or is a discussion of his skills and how he should be scored in relation to the rest of the top men out of bounds now?

[wallylutz]

So... Chan has better Skating Skills than the Japanese guys because he's tall, is that what you're saying here? Because I really can't think of what else you could possibly be implying there. Or are you saying that Chan should effectively get bonus GOE on his jumps because he's tall, and it's harder to jump the taller you are? That would certainly help Evan Lysacek if he decides to come back.

In 2008 Beijing Olympics, some female gymnasts of a certain nationality were questioned for being possibly under-age. Why do you think that was an issue and what advantage(s) that gave them for being small and, in their case, very young?

[demarinis5]

This thread is something else. First time I heard Oda and Kozuka called dwarf like. Poor choice of words imo.


Good points doubleflutz.

[mot]

Takahashi got screwed over in the TES mark at Olympics.

I am not going to question technical panel's and judges' decisions on his performance, as I cannot claim I know the figure skating better than they do. Besides, the rule is that when it comes to technical panel's decision, it is to be made according to what they see from their view point and if called upon, from the camera angle they use. When the jump looks under-rotated or taken off from the wrong or flat edge from where they sit or the camera is placed, the jump is downgraded or !/e is given. We do not have the same point of view as theirs, and therefore as far as the rules are concerned, what it seems on the screen from the camera angle used by the TV crew is simply meaningless - that's what I understand. He landed the quad on the heel - that means to me if he had managed to land on the RBO edge as he should have done, the final rotation in the air may not have been completed. Calling his step sequence out of sync with the music may not have been exactly fair - but it was obvious it was not executed in the way it was choreographed, judging from his previous performances and how it was performed at the Worlds a month later.

By stating 'got screwed', do you mean the judges gave the low TES mark maliciously? Or they collectively made a mistake? (Looking at the protocol, the GOE marks given by 9 judges are pretty consistent.) If you meant the former, it does not make sense that the same judges gave him the highest PCS marks of the day.

OK, I must add that, for the first time as long as I've known him (since his senior debut that is) , I read in his interview him questioning the technical panel's decisions - the downgrade on triple toe - but he accepted edge call on the lutzs by saying 'because they are executed in the places where it might look like flat edge take-off from the judges' - this is exactly the point I am making above. Well, he has been known as a kind of flutter and it was not the first time in the last season his take off edge was questioned though. (He got an attention at Japan Nationals and the Worlds too.)

As I stated, Dai is my favourite skater of all time, and I did not mean to put him and his performance down by any means. However, as far as technical elements are concerned, his free in Vancouver was not the best, although when it comes to the performance, it was one of the best I have ever seen. It nearly brought me to tears and I much much prefer it to the one at the Worlds a month later. I just tried to explain to the poster, who questioned Dai's total segment score for the free at the Olympics, Dai's case was also similar to Patrick's at SC - received low TES and high PCS for the same performace.

[doubleflutz]

In 2008 Beijing Olympics, some female gymnasts of a certain nationality were questioned for being possibly under-age. Why do you think that was an issue and what advantage(s) that gave them for being small and, in their case, very young?

Their ages were questioned because China has a history of cheating on that score, and if they were not age eligible, that would be cheating. No one gives Beth Tweddle extra points just for being old.

But that's a matter of the rules. Once you rule out actual cheating, athletes just have to compete with the bodies they have. It's not an entirely level playing field; some people are just exceptionally physically gifted even among elite athletes, as much above the people in their sports as most elite athletes are above normal people. That's life. Khorkina was exceptionally tall for a gymnast, which made it very hard for her, but she had to compete at the same level as everyone else, and find ways to compensate - which she did, beautifully, and which Evan Lysacek mostly didn't, sadly, although I blame COP there, in as much as forcing a six-foot-two man with the wingspan of an albatross to do ugly hunched up sit-spin variations for points is silly.

If Patrick Chan deserves bonus GOE on his jumps for "jumping while taller than the Japanese", Jeremy Abbott should win Worlds this year, because he's just as tall as Evan, and has a nice quad and a gorgeous triple axel. Sadly, Daisuke will be off the podium, because he's tiny and makes Mao look tall. Isn't Joubert somewhat on the tall side for a skater? We can give him silver. How tall is KVDP, again? Or those Chinese jumping beans?

[fairly4]

i am like some people, (in my opinion) i don't think skaters who fall, trip, fall out should get high 6's ,7's and 8's and 9's in pcs scores. i mean yes they can do it correctly but part of the reason they fall is because of BAD skating technique-like in short-he was leaning in the air, wrong edge calls etc. how they get high 6's 7's 8's and 9's and possible 10's is beyond me.
however when it comes to presentation and choregraphy and interpretation i don't mind it because the some of the mistakes don't interrupt the flow and/or thought and or feeling of music.
yet when they bomb and screw up-i don't get it.
in and in performance and execution how they can get high 6's 7's and 8's and 9's is beyond me-because to me that implies how clean and the ability to stand of feet while executing the program on ice.
but one thing i noticed for me it seems the more they screw up the higher the pc's are no matter what as long as you are the skater/team your federations wants in the medal round.
patrick does deserve high pc's for chorogreaphy and interpretation and when he skates clean -he deserve high pc's for all. but to me when he screws up and bombs like he did in skate canada short-no.

[mot]

If being small is almost automatically an advantage, then the restriction should be placed upon the hight, not the age, I think. A bit like what they do in judo, armature wrestling, boxing, etc, in which the weight is considered to be an advantage, and thus competitors with significant weight differences do not enter the same category. The Chinese gymnast's age and eligibility was questioned, not because she was smaller, but because she was a better gymnast than those who were older than her and thus eligible. China had better chance of medal because she was good, not because she was small.

Having said that, it seems being smaller and lighter weight can be an advantage in figure skating, especially when ladies and jumps are concerned - so many struggle to keep their jumping ability as their body grows and gains weight. Perhaps much less so for men, as they tend to be more consistent in harder jumps as their body matures and gains more muscle strength. Hence, those who land the quads at younger age are praised more. As far as skating skills are concerned, I can just say some ice dancers are pretty tall.