Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

dorispulaski · Nov 9, 2010

Even boxing, a notoriously judged sport, has a 3 knockdown rule.

http://www.ehow.com/how_4742022_understand-sport-boxings-threeknockdown-rule.html

After 3 falls to the canvas, the fight is over. The falling boxer is beaten.

Skating could learn a thing or two from that philosophy.

Skating like boxing is a hazardous sport; skaters falling multiple times could be injured from the first fall(s) and should be checked out.

After Chan fell the third time, the ref could have had the music turned off, and he would be disqualified.

colleen o'neill · Nov 9, 2010

As I said before, I'm finding this thread very informative..perhaps even more importantly in a general way than as it relates specifically to the men's competition at SC. I know that some of the points raised here will come to mind when I'm watching future competitions.

After all my years of watching skating ,I feel fairly comfortable in being able to sort the wheat from the chaff in an overall , general sort of way..even though I can't argue the really fine points ,such as being able to identify the steps in someone's choreography , the way I could probably do with dance.

At SC , I thought Patrick was definitely overmarked in the SP ( but couldn't be sure by how much ) OTOH, I thought he skated well enough in the FS to climb way back from disaster. I would probably have put him in 3rd , judging by my own instincts :rolleye:

.... I waver back and forth as to whether I would have put Nobu or Adam on top.( At the moment I'm leaning toward Adam. Tomorrow, who knows ?)

After reading all these posts, I can't say my mind is much changed ...but I feel like I've had more of the pros and cons articulated for me to help inform me in the future.

Jaana · Nov 9, 2010

janetfan said:
One thing good about 6.0 was that when a skater BOMBED their SP they were not held up the way we saw the CoP hold up Patrick.

But hasn't Oda paid his dues yet? I thought he won SC and nothing I have read in this thread about the CoP can change my views on that.

IMO "paid his dues" is nothing more than code for "reputation scoring."

I have gotten the impression that in figure skating reputation has always helped skaters, what ever the scoring system. In my opinion Chan has now reputation as he has won the Worlds silver medal twice.

Earlier I did not understand Chan´s high PCS scoring, but in this season I´m gradually starting to get what the judges have been seeing in his skating during a couple previous seasons, and in consequence became a fan...

seniorita · Nov 9, 2010

You dont need to be a fan to understand judges marks. You can have your personal taste for a skater but still get why he is marked low or high even you dont like him or do or the other way around. I could get why Kozuka was marked lower(not that I liked it) even if from 2008 I found him same spectacular as now that he finally gets his marks.

wallylutz said:
In plain English: Your theory that judges only notice Chan b/c Buttle retires doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

And in plain french?

evangeline · Nov 9, 2010

wallylutz said:
Please state the name of a male figure skater in the Vancouver Olympic Games who is shorter than Oda. If you can do that, I will retract my observation, otherwise, like I said, it's a statement of fact, nothing more.

Well, here is your original post (emphasis mine):

wallylutz said:
I think Kozuka and Oda have very soft knees which make their landings look very smooth. However, that is far from the only thing to consider in Skating Skills. Chan is not tall but Kozuka and Oda are dwarf like based on North American standard - this is not a criticism, just an observation having seen both skated live many times. In any event, Oda's SS mark isn't very far apart from that of Chan at Skate Canada, his closest component category compared to Chan's. When people cite it here as a justification of their perceived injustice, it comes across as stretching the reality to me. Most posters here are very smart and knowledgeable in my view, there is no reason why they shouldn't know better to deliberately ignore other factors they know very well in their arguments. I think many here are not entirely honest in their assessment and rather let their own emotions overcome their logic. Even tony Wheeler's posted grading of the top 3 at SC and his written justification left a lot to be desired. He would have failed the evaluation process when he suggested that judges were too lenient on Chan's GOE when he himself failed to explain and include the other factors to be considered in making up the grading of GOE on a jump, which is not solely based on the stability of landing. Reading Mr. Wheeler's review, he ended up understating the correct GOE vs. what judges gave precisely b/c his thinking process wasn't thorough enough.

In case you missed it, here is my original reply:

evangeline said:
"Dwarf-like"? Come on!

Ok, Oda is short. But Kozuka (according to their ISU biographies) is only 3cm shorter than Chan. If you are skeptical of the heights listed on the ISU biographies, pictures of Kozuka and Chan together clearly show that Kozuka is only slightly shorter than Chan. If Kozuka is "dwarf-like" than so is Chan.

And as another poster pointed out, what does height have to do with anything? Are you trying to justify that Kozuka's and ODa's skating skills are somewhat inferior to Chan's because Chan is taller?

I think it's pretty clear why some posters, being the "angry and emotional" and "ineducable" creatures we are, may object to your original comments and think that your own emotions may have overcome your logic.

demarinis5 · Nov 9, 2010

colleen o'neill said:
This is a really fascinating , informative and thought provoking thread. So far , I judge that gkelly rules....I'm really appreciating your detailed breakdowns.

Ditto!

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2010

Mathman said:
It's the Emporer's New Clothes syndrome. If everyone tells you that something is great, then when you see it yourself, yup, it's great.

On the other hand, if you see something that really is great, you don't want to be the first to stick your neck our and say, "this is great." Instead you look around over your shoulder and whisper to your colleagues, "was that great?"

It falls under "judges are human."

Is there a bullet in the PC scores for Judges-Are-Human? I think not The set-up for one component to win a championship is totally not in the spirit of CoP. And above all, Falls can not be ignored in the scoring of skating skills especially during a footwork segment. The Footwork segment is a display of speed, flow, and basic ice turns, all of which fall under the misnomer, of skating skills. The skater in question was not able to control his footwork due to faulty skating skills (that afternoon).

ImaginaryPogue · Nov 9, 2010

What's the solution then if we can't work based on the precept that judges are human?

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2010

ImaginaryPogue said:
What's the solution then if we can't work based on the precept that judges are human?

Make an Annual Award Dinner to announce the Winners of the coveted prize: Skating Skills - based on past events and voted on by all the Judges active in skating.

ImaginaryPogue · Nov 9, 2010

Joesitz said:
Make an Annual Award Dinner to announce the Winners of the coveted prize: Skating Skills - based on past events and voted on by all the Judges active in skating.

Heh.

janetfan · Nov 9, 2010

Joesitz said:
Make an Annual Award Dinner to announce the Winners of the coveted prize: Skating Skills - based on past events and voted on by all the Judges active in skating.

They could call it the "Buttle award"

Bluebonnet · Nov 9, 2010

Thanks, Mathman and gkelly! Love to read your both explanations!

Reputation and Corridor exist in all judged sports. IJS is with no exception.

So next time when we see Patrick Chan wins with multiple falls, at least we could come down and take it a lot easier knowing that he has a 3-fall cushion.

Got love this skating skills!

Jaana · Nov 9, 2010

seniorita said:
You dont need to be a fan to understand judges marks. You can have your personal taste for a skater but still get why he is marked low or high even you dont like him or do or the other way around.

Huh, I don´t get where you are coming from... Well, I´m trying to be more clear: I started to understand what judges saw in Chan´s skating and obviously started to see the same myself, gradually. That is why I became a fan. With some skaters one may become a fan at once and with some other skaters it takes a while.

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2010

Bluebonnet said:
Reputation and Corridor exist in all judged sports. IJS is with no exception.

If we already know about Reputation and Corridor, why do we need to have a competition? Is it solely for entertainment only?

Mathman · Nov 9, 2010

wallylutz said:
Please state the name of a male figure skater in the Vancouver Olympic Games who is shorter than Oda. If you can do that, I will retract my observation, otherwise, like I said, it's a statement of fact, nothing more.

I think what startled readers was, first, the term "drawf-like" ("short" would have sufficed), and second, the implication that Patrick Chan deserved some extra bonus points on his jumps because he is taller than Oda.

If Chan skates next against Joubert, should we hold Patrick to a stricter standard than Brian because he has an unfair advantage, being the shorter skater?

Joesitz (RIP) · Nov 9, 2010

^^

I think we are amending the rules of competition to include: Judges' Human Element; and Skaters' Height, and Reputation with a nod to tech and components.

Mathman · Nov 9, 2010

Joesitz said:
Is there a bullet in the PC scores for Judges-Are-Human?

I think we can all agree that reputation and past results should not play a role in how a competition is scored. But I haven't heard any suggestions about what we can do to bring about better judging, except -- "make the judges do a better job."

Well, we are all for that, of course.

seniorita · Nov 9, 2010

Jaana said:
Huh, I don´t get where you are coming from... Well, I´m trying to be more clear: I started to understand what judges saw in Chan´s skating and obviously started to see the same myself, gradually. That is why I became a fan. With some skaters one may become a fan at once and with some other skaters it takes a while.

i was not quoting you and replying directly, your post was just an occasion to say something myself. Many dont understand me, it is not the first time.

Mathman said:
But I haven't heard any suggestions about what we can do to bring about better judging

I think the two different pannels for TES and PCS would have been a great start as we had discussed also in the past, but since it we agreed it is not too realistic, we can keep complain?

Bluebonnet · Nov 9, 2010

Joesitz said:
If we already know about Reputation and Corridor, why do we need to have a competition? Is it solely for entertainment only?

It's been like it from the beginning of this sport I suspect. It surely hurts competitions and enthusiasm of the skaters and the viewers. But it won't prevent them, at least not totally prevent them, from loving this sport. That's why we are still here arguing, discussing, commenting, and watching.

colleen o'neill · Nov 9, 2010

I can totally relate to what jaana says about being able to appreciate some skaters sooner than others..And Patrick is definitely one of those that it really helps to see in person.
I first saw him on TV, heard all the raving , and thought " Yeah, I can sort of see what they're on about , but..is it really that great ? " For me, it really did take seeing him in person to get the full impact , while with many other skaters , while it's always wonderful to see any of them in person , it didn't really alter my opinion to any great degree.

I like the idea of two separate panels , but realize it's probably cost prohibitive.. I'm also in the camp that says let's have judges ( with them and their marks fully identified ) that are only ISU representatives, not tied to any federation , and answerable for the marks they give...(not holding my breath). But in the meantime, am I correct that this year the marks from more of the panel will be used to calculate the outcome ? Even with the dang corridor , won't this be some help ?..And ,if I'm correct , has that kicked in yet?

Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

colleen o'neill

Jaana

seniorita

evangeline

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

Joesitz (RIP)

ImaginaryPogue

Joesitz (RIP)

ImaginaryPogue

janetfan

Match Penalty

Bluebonnet

Jaana

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

Joesitz (RIP)

Mathman

seniorita

Bluebonnet

colleen o'neill

Similar threads

Connect with us