Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 LastLast
Results 106 to 120 of 198

Thread: Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

  1. #106
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    New York City
    Posts
    20,185
    ^what is it that judges need a reputation to score more carefully? Isn't the CoP based on what a skater can do, and not to be compared to others with or without reputation.

    The Figure Skatinng scores are based on Technical, Program Components and Reputation. Yes? Hmmm.

  2. #107
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    And Buttle to retire
    Chan defeated Buttle at the Canadian Nationals in 2008 and Chan won the Paris GP that season. So no, your theory is most likely incorrect.

  3. #108
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Posts
    4,147
    Buttle in 2008 was way better than Chan. Buttle made a whole bunch of mistakes to lose to Chan at Canadians. Chan had improved so much by 2009 it is hard to know what would have happened. If Buttle could have mantained his consistency from the 2008 Worlds he would have been unbeatable in 2009 and 2010 against the skating everyone else put out at the major events, but fat chance that was going to happen. More likely it is a guessing game with Buttle's inconsistency issues and Chan's improvements but own inconsistency issues.

  4. #109
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    I think what gkelly is saying is that one can win on the one PC component - Skating Skills. Even if Patrick did have the best of the Skating Skills in that competition, does it imply that other skaters, notably Oda did not have excellent skating skills? I think not. When a poster resorts to 'the other things' and without mentioning other skaters as not having 'other things', it does not show the reason for a winner. Can 9.4 be that much better than 9.3? or is it just to hold up someone?
    Not sure where or how you come to the conclusion that rewarding Chan = putting down Oda.

    Here is the protocol since this thread with the exception of gkelly, mathman and very few others is quite logically challenged.

    http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

    Indeed, Chan barely scored half a point ahead o Oda on SS. However, as many have pointed out, including myself, Oda's program lacked good accentuation to his chosen music, it's as though he skated totally beside the music. Even Oda's fan here admitted he didn't skate well in Kingston and his performance, below his average. Indeed, in CH and IN, judges gave Chan more than a full point ahead of Oda in each case. Maybe Chan is just more familiar with his LP since it's the same as last year and Oda needs more mileage to raise his comfort level. However, in Skate Canada, Oda just didn't deliver a winning performance even without many visible major errors.

  5. #110
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    5,580
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Chan defeated Buttle at the Canadian Nationals in 2008 and Chan won the Paris GP that season. So no, your theory is most likely incorrect.
    Yea so? The discussion was about skaters and reputation, and Buttle was already the bronze Olympic medalist post 2006, i dont think those first seasons of Patrick judges thought of him as the No1 Canadian skater, and yes Patrick defeated him at Nationals but Buttle won Worlds after. Chan came to light as contender after he retired, and if Buttle continued after being world champion I think he would still be No1 Canadian in reputation, this is what i meant.

  6. #111
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    Buttle in 2008 was way better than Chan. Buttle made a whole bunch of mistakes to lose to Chan at Canadians. Chan had improved so much by 2009 it is hard to know what would have happened. If Buttle could have mantained his consistency from the 2008 Worlds he would have been unbeatable in 2009 and 2010 against the skating everyone else put out at the major events, but fat chance that was going to happen. More likely it is a guessing game with Buttle's inconsistency issues and Chan's improvements but own inconsistency issues.
    Just to clarify, Chan won both Paris GP in the 2007-08 season and the 2008-09 season. He won a Senior GP and made it to GPF before Buttle retires.

  7. #112
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    Yea so? The discussion was about skaters and reputation, and Buttle was already the bronze Olympic medalist post 2006, i dont think those first seasons of Patrick judges thought of him as the No1 Canadian skater, and yes Patrick defeated him at Nationals but Buttle won Worlds after. Chan came to light as contender after he retired, and if Buttle continued after being world champion I think he would still be No1 Canadian in reputation, this is what i meant.
    In plain English: Your theory that judges only notice Chan b/c Buttle retires doesn't hold up under scrutiny.

  8. #113
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Detroit, Michigan
    Posts
    27,908
    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    ^what is it that judges need a reputation to score more carefully?
    It's the Emporer's New Clothes syndrome. If everyone tells you that something is great, then when you see it yourself, yup, it's great.

    On the other hand, if you see something that really is great, you don't want to be the first to stick your neck our and say, "this is great." Instead you look around over your shoulder and whisper to your colleagues, "was that great?"

    It falls under "judges are human."

  9. #114
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Philadelphia, PA
    Posts
    6,889
    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It's the Emporer's New Clothes syndrome. If everyone tells you that something is great, then when you see it yourself, yup, it's great.

    On the other hand, if you see something that really is great, you don't want to be the first to stick your neck our and say, "this is great." Instead you look around over your shoulder and whisper to your colleagues, "was that great?"

    It falls under "judges are human."
    It is also a tradition in figure skating that the IJS had not been able to change.
    I don't mind it because I am used to it. What I don't like are claims by some that under the CoP this issue of reputation scoring and "wait your turn" has been fixed when it feels exactly the same to me.

    Wally says Patrick won SC fair and square. That gives me something to consider since I know he knows more about skating and scoring than I do.

    Still, Patrick seemed ridiculously overscored in the SP and in my view did not make up enough ground in the LP to beat Oda.
    Was Oda at his best?
    A more realistic question might be "did Oda need to be at his best to beat the mistake riddled program of Chan?"

  10. #115
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,083
    Wally says Patrick won SC fair and square. That gives me something to consider since I know he knows more about skating and scoring than I do.
    I think after Wally's "dwarf" comment, he can't be considered an unbiased observer. We all have our biases but I still can't over that one.

    I'm also curious to see what Wally thinks of who should have won in Salt Lake. Because everyone knows that B/S had a much more choregraphy/transition filled program than Sale/Peltier. And Anton hardly fell four times. It was really a minor error.
    Yes Wally knows a lot about skating but sometimes people can know a lot and use that knowledge to be all for their skaters.

    I'm personally on the stance that clean isn't everything. But that multiple glaring errors should take you out.
    Last edited by bekalc; 11-08-2010 at 11:29 PM.

  11. #116
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    I think after Wally's "dwarf" comment, he can't be considered an unbiased observer. We all have our biases but I still can't over that one.
    Please state the name of a male figure skater in the Vancouver Olympic Games who is shorter than Oda. If you can do that, I will retract my observation, otherwise, like I said, it's a statement of fact, nothing more.

  12. #117
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Posts
    1,818
    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Wally says Patrick won SC fair and square. That gives me something to consider since I know he knows more about skating and scoring than I do.

    Still, Patrick seemed ridiculously overscored in the SP and in my view did not make up enough ground in the LP to beat Oda.
    Was Oda at his best?
    A more realistic question might be "did Oda need to be at his best to beat the mistake riddled program of Chan?"
    For the sake of argument, say my objectivity has indeed been compromised for X reason as some angry and emotional fans here are alluding to. Just ignore what I say, what about gkelly's attempts to educate some of the ineducable posters here? It's almost hilarious if not sad that some people are threatening to quit this sport over the result of a GP? I think some fans are good at criticizing but often failed to realize the judges' job under IJS is to detach themselves from the ordinal outcome, hence, they may end up producing results that they emotionally disagree with at the end. I'd like to remind myself of Laura Lepisto in 2010 Worlds, my assessment was she should be 3rd in the LP in my book even though emotionally, like a lot of other people, it felt wrong to put her 3rd.
    Last edited by wallylutz; 11-09-2010 at 12:02 AM.

  13. #118
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,083
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Please state the name of a male figure skater in the Vancouver Olympic Games who is shorter than Oda. If you can do that, I will retract my observation, otherwise, like I said, it's a statement of fact, nothing more.
    Well you called Kozuka a dwarf too. But the question is what does Oda being small have to do with his skating ability? I don't realize that anything in the rule books suggested that someone should be losing points because they are small.

    In fact I know some find it amazing that someone as small as Oda is able to skate with the power Oda skates. And while normally smallish height can be helpful for jumps, some at one time wondered if he was too small to ever get a quad. I know Patrick once said in an interview that he thought that his height made him pretty lucky for skating. .

    Once height like someone's talent is something nobody can really control and to argue that IN ANY WAY it should influence marks is ridiculous. And hilarious because once again Patrick is a lot smaller than some of the other top skaters (Abbott, Evan, Joubert, Verner, but somehow thats perfectly a-okay for you)

    Oh and I love how you didn't answer my S/P vs B/S question.

    It's almost hilarious if not sad that some people are threatening to quit this sport over the result of a GP?
    Its not over a G/P but frustrating over how this sport has been judged for a long time. And leaving probably won't happen. Its frustrating for example seeing Yu-na Kim with a very messy skate, win the free program over Asada who had a much better skate.

    And its ridiculous that the system allowed Laura with her doubles to beat someone like Cynthia. (See I don't hate Canadian skaters)

    And in general its not that someone like me is incapable of understanding that there's more to this sport than jumping. Or is incapable of understanding that Patrick Chan has amazing skating skills, hard choregraphy and transitions. I actually do get that, and I loved his free program.

    But its that someone like me doesn't like seeing really messy messy programs getting big scores. And it doesn't matter HOW hard someone tries to educate me that this is perfectly cool and acceptable because I'm still not going to like it because it makes the sport predetermined.

    And its also because I can see Johnny Weir's point that Laura's jump content was something novice skaters do. And that it was unfair to the girls who actually went out there and went for the difficult jumps like Cynthia and landed them. That maybe the jumps need to be rewarded a bit more if thats how the system plays.

    What made Alexei Yagudin a great champion was that he normally delivered in the big moments. Sure sometimes he might win with a fall. But he wasn't winning with four falls. (And yes that time Abt outskated him at Euros, Abt should have won)

    Did Oda have the skate of his life. NO. But neither did Chan's if you take into account the entire competition, because Chan had a disasterous short. And Oda had two decent skates. Not to mention while Chan is way better at presentation than Oda, I must say that musical interpertation is actually something Patrick himself needs to work on. I actually think Rippon is better in that area.

    Once again not really about whose better Patrick or Oda. If both skate clean, Patrick. And Patrick can even have a major error and be better. But I just freakin draw the line as a fan at three falls. I'm sorry but no.

    Its funny but even though I'm complaining about Skate Canada I'll admit his free at Skate Canada was beautiful. Chan's a gorgeous skater. And he could even with his horrible mouth become a favorite of mine (because his skating truly is wonderful). But as wonderful skater as Patrick is, it doesn't mean he should be getting away with multiple falls. By giving him those kind of scores for those kind of messes, the judges are actually making me root actively against Patrick in a lot of ways.
    Last edited by bekalc; 11-09-2010 at 01:06 AM.

  14. #119
    Custom Title
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Posts
    148
    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    For the sake of argument, say my objectivity has indeed been compromised for X reason as some angry and emotional fans here are alluding to. Just ignore what I say, what about gkelly's attempts to educate some of the ineducable posters here? It's almost hilarious if not sad that some people are threatening to quit this sport over the result of a GP? I think some fans are good at criticizing but often failed to realize the judges' job under IJS is to detach themselves from the ordinal outcome, hence, they may end up producing results that they emotionally disagree with at the end. I'd like to remind myself of Laura Lepisto in 2010 Worlds, my assessment was she should be 3rd in the LP in my book even though emotionally, like a lot of other people, it felt wrong to put her 3rd.
    Boy, you sure do like to use the argument from authority and denigrate other people in order to prop up your own opinions, don't you? Just saying, some of the least rational and objective people on earth tend to be those convinced of their own superior rationality.

    Yes, the "so-and-so fell X number of times and still got a medal! Heresy!" is a silly way of looking at a contest scored under the IJS. But so is pointing at Patrick Chan's skating skills and insisting they justify his astronomically high scores in all four other categories of PCS, particularly the more subjective and artistic ones, like Performance/Execution, Interpretation, and parts of Choreography, and his extremely high GOE. At least not without going through each program, moment by moment and element by element, and explaining why you think the scores are justified. Which you haven't done.

    You can't hold yourself up as an example of deep knowledge and unbiased rationality, without being willing to ask two questions: Did Patrick Chan skate as well as he was scored? If he did not, why was he scored that way?

    People whose answers are "nope" and "politicking" are not inherently "ineducable", or whatever other snide, sneering terms you'd care to pull out of your thesaurus.
    Last edited by doubleflutz; 11-09-2010 at 01:42 AM.

  15. #120
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Posts
    3,083
    And the point you need to understand Wally is that not every person who watches skating is going to spend the hours to understand every little move or stroke that a skater makes. As my mother told me when I tried to explain the rules " I just like it cuz its pretty" One thing though she pretty much can tell and understand is that a fall "isn't pretty" And while she can kind of get over one fall. I remember her telling me while watching the Olympics that yeah Daisuke was much better than both Evan and Plushenko, even with the fall. But what she cannot understand or get is when she starts seeing a skater falling multiple times, over and over again and getting huge and ridiculous marks! Then people like and others say the system is a joke, it makes no sense, so and so fell multiple times?

    She doesn't understand deep edges, flutzs, underrotations. All she says is lots of major errors that as far as she can tell ANYONE can see.

    Now obvious this is not American Idol, and we have trained judges for a reason. But this sport, if it wants to remain popular and actually be watched/appreciated by people outside of "the most eductated of folks" needs to have scoring that at least makes a little sense. It can decide what it values as a sport. And it can decide that while no we don't want it so that one fall takes someone out of the competition. Maybe its a good idea though to ensure that multiple falls is heavily punished.

    My main issue is that if a skater like Chan can have a 50% of his score already determined before his program is even skated, there's frankly a problem with this sport.

Page 8 of 14 FirstFirst 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •