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Thread: Serious Question about Patrick Chan's skating ability compared to other skaters

  1. #121
    Wicked Yankee Girl dorispulaski's Avatar
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    Even boxing, a notoriously judged sport, has a 3 knockdown rule.

    http://www.ehow.com/how_4742022_unde...down-rule.html

    After 3 falls to the canvas, the fight is over. The falling boxer is beaten.

    Skating could learn a thing or two from that philosophy.

    Skating like boxing is a hazardous sport; skaters falling multiple times could be injured from the first fall(s) and should be checked out.

    After Chan fell the third time, the ref could have had the music turned off, and he would be disqualified.

  2. #122
    Constable , Costume Police colleen o'neill's Avatar
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    As I said before, I'm finding this thread very informative..perhaps even more importantly in a general way than as it relates specifically to the men's competition at SC. I know that some of the points raised here will come to mind when I'm watching future competitions.

    After all my years of watching skating ,I feel fairly comfortable in being able to sort the wheat from the chaff in an overall , general sort of way..even though I can't argue the really fine points ,such as being able to identify the steps in someone's choreography , the way I could probably do with dance.

    At SC , I thought Patrick was definitely overmarked in the SP ( but couldn't be sure by how much ) OTOH, I thought he skated well enough in the FS to climb way back from disaster. I would probably have put him in 3rd , judging by my own instincts .... I waver back and forth as to whether I would have put Nobu or Adam on top.( At the moment I'm leaning toward Adam. Tomorrow, who knows ?)

    After reading all these posts, I can't say my mind is much changed ...but I feel like I've had more of the pros and cons articulated for me to help inform me in the future.
    Last edited by colleen o'neill; 11-09-2010 at 03:42 AM.

  3. #123
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    One thing good about 6.0 was that when a skater BOMBED their SP they were not held up the way we saw the CoP hold up Patrick.

    But hasn't Oda paid his dues yet? I thought he won SC and nothing I have read in this thread about the CoP can change my views on that.

    IMO "paid his dues" is nothing more than code for "reputation scoring."
    I have gotten the impression that in figure skating reputation has always helped skaters, what ever the scoring system. In my opinion Chan has now reputation as he has won the Worlds silver medal twice.

    Earlier I did not understand Chan´s high PCS scoring, but in this season I´m gradually starting to get what the judges have been seeing in his skating during a couple previous seasons, and in consequence became a fan...
    Last edited by Jaana; 11-09-2010 at 04:01 AM.

  4. #124
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    You dont need to be a fan to understand judges marks. You can have your personal taste for a skater but still get why he is marked low or high even you dont like him or do or the other way around. I could get why Kozuka was marked lower(not that I liked it) even if from 2008 I found him same spectacular as now that he finally gets his marks.


    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    In plain English: Your theory that judges only notice Chan b/c Buttle retires doesn't hold up under scrutiny.
    And in plain french?

  5. #125
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Please state the name of a male figure skater in the Vancouver Olympic Games who is shorter than Oda. If you can do that, I will retract my observation, otherwise, like I said, it's a statement of fact, nothing more.
    Well, here is your original post (emphasis mine):

    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    I think Kozuka and Oda have very soft knees which make their landings look very smooth. However, that is far from the only thing to consider in Skating Skills. Chan is not tall but Kozuka and Oda are dwarf like based on North American standard - this is not a criticism, just an observation having seen both skated live many times. In any event, Oda's SS mark isn't very far apart from that of Chan at Skate Canada, his closest component category compared to Chan's. When people cite it here as a justification of their perceived injustice, it comes across as stretching the reality to me. Most posters here are very smart and knowledgeable in my view, there is no reason why they shouldn't know better to deliberately ignore other factors they know very well in their arguments. I think many here are not entirely honest in their assessment and rather let their own emotions overcome their logic. Even tony Wheeler's posted grading of the top 3 at SC and his written justification left a lot to be desired. He would have failed the evaluation process when he suggested that judges were too lenient on Chan's GOE when he himself failed to explain and include the other factors to be considered in making up the grading of GOE on a jump, which is not solely based on the stability of landing. Reading Mr. Wheeler's review, he ended up understating the correct GOE vs. what judges gave precisely b/c his thinking process wasn't thorough enough.
    In case you missed it, here is my original reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    "Dwarf-like"? Come on!

    Ok, Oda is short. But Kozuka (according to their ISU biographies) is only 3cm shorter than Chan. If you are skeptical of the heights listed on the ISU biographies, pictures of Kozuka and Chan together clearly show that Kozuka is only slightly shorter than Chan. If Kozuka is "dwarf-like" than so is Chan.

    And as another poster pointed out, what does height have to do with anything? Are you trying to justify that Kozuka's and ODa's skating skills are somewhat inferior to Chan's because Chan is taller?
    I think it's pretty clear why some posters, being the "angry and emotional" and "ineducable" creatures we are, may object to your original comments and think that your own emotions may have overcome your logic.

  6. #126
    Custom Title demarinis5's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by colleen o'neill View Post
    This is a really fascinating , informative and thought provoking thread. So far , I judge that gkelly rules....I'm really appreciating your detailed breakdowns.
    Ditto!

  7. #127
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mathman View Post
    It's the Emporer's New Clothes syndrome. If everyone tells you that something is great, then when you see it yourself, yup, it's great.

    On the other hand, if you see something that really is great, you don't want to be the first to stick your neck our and say, "this is great." Instead you look around over your shoulder and whisper to your colleagues, "was that great?"

    It falls under "judges are human."
    Is there a bullet in the PC scores for Judges-Are-Human? I think not The set-up for one component to win a championship is totally not in the spirit of CoP. And above all, Falls can not be ignored in the scoring of skating skills especially during a footwork segment. The Footwork segment is a display of speed, flow, and basic ice turns, all of which fall under the misnomer, of skating skills. The skater in question was not able to control his footwork due to faulty skating skills (that afternoon).

  8. #128
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    What's the solution then if we can't work based on the precept that judges are human?

  9. #129
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    What's the solution then if we can't work based on the precept that judges are human?
    Make an Annual Award Dinner to announce the Winners of the coveted prize: Skating Skills - based on past events and voted on by all the Judges active in skating.

  10. #130
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Make an Annual Award Dinner to announce the Winners of the coveted prize: Skating Skills - based on past events and voted on by all the Judges active in skating.
    Heh.

  11. #131
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joesitz View Post
    Make an Annual Award Dinner to announce the Winners of the coveted prize: Skating Skills - based on past events and voted on by all the Judges active in skating.


    They could call it the "Buttle award"

  12. #132
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    Thanks, Mathman and gkelly! Love to read your both explanations!

    Reputation and Corridor exist in all judged sports. IJS is with no exception.

    So next time when we see Patrick Chan wins with multiple falls, at least we could come down and take it a lot easier knowing that he has a 3-fall cushion.

    Got love this skating skills!

  13. #133
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    Quote Originally Posted by seniorita View Post
    You dont need to be a fan to understand judges marks. You can have your personal taste for a skater but still get why he is marked low or high even you dont like him or do or the other way around.
    Huh, I don´t get where you are coming from... Well, I´m trying to be more clear: I started to understand what judges saw in Chan´s skating and obviously started to see the same myself, gradually. That is why I became a fan. With some skaters one may become a fan at once and with some other skaters it takes a while.
    Last edited by Jaana; 11-09-2010 at 01:39 PM.

  14. #134
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bluebonnet View Post
    Reputation and Corridor exist in all judged sports. IJS is with no exception.
    If we already know about Reputation and Corridor, why do we need to have a competition? Is it solely for entertainment only?

  15. #135
    Custom Title Mathman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Please state the name of a male figure skater in the Vancouver Olympic Games who is shorter than Oda. If you can do that, I will retract my observation, otherwise, like I said, it's a statement of fact, nothing more.
    I think what startled readers was, first, the term "drawf-like" ("short" would have sufficed), and second, the implication that Patrick Chan deserved some extra bonus points on his jumps because he is taller than Oda.

    If Chan skates next against Joubert, should we hold Patrick to a stricter standard than Brian because he has an unfair advantage, being the shorter skater?

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