- Joined
- Jan 22, 2010
I agree it's like a cycle. Btw, I'd love to travel to Kapan.
: oops!That could be a great country, though. At least it would be clear of Yuna and Mao bots
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American Girls--what's wrong?
- Thread starter Poodlepal
- Start date
: oops!That could be a great country, though. At least it would be clear of Yuna and Mao bots
regarding mirai-more than 3 times;
there is alot of us skaters, and more other countries skaters,
mirais-three times-worlds, but this is her 3 year in a row for the gp events.
as far as correct technique-u.s. used to have good technique ladies except for tara, sarahj but not so bad as sasha technique. i been seeing alot of the us ladies now following sasha bad technique-. get good pc scores and not decent technical and/or being expected to be held up despite their technique problems and the other countries are trying to clean up their technique and have decent pc's scores. which is how canada joannie, laura, japan, korea , russia is and has gained ground . U.s youngsters has to clean up their technique more . we have the artistry but some of the youngsters don't have the technique like we should and has been overlooked in the past by sasha's. under cop i think the u.s. tells the skaters get high pcs, high short so no matter what you stay up on top. it doesn't work that way other skaters have decent technique and decent pc's to surpass the high short and screws up in the long regarding the u.s. skaters.
the u.s. skaters has to work for it and they don't alot of times. so the u.s. skaters get beat. (my thoughts and opinion only)
there is alot of us skaters, and more other countries skaters,
mirais-three times-worlds, but this is her 3 year in a row for the gp events.
as far as correct technique-u.s. used to have good technique ladies except for tara, sarahj but not so bad as sasha technique. i been seeing alot of the us ladies now following sasha bad technique-. get good pc scores and not decent technical and/or being expected to be held up despite their technique problems and the other countries are trying to clean up their technique and have decent pc's scores. which is how canada joannie, laura, japan, korea , russia is and has gained ground . U.s youngsters has to clean up their technique more . we have the artistry but some of the youngsters don't have the technique like we should and has been overlooked in the past by sasha's. under cop i think the u.s. tells the skaters get high pcs, high short so no matter what you stay up on top. it doesn't work that way other skaters have decent technique and decent pc's to surpass the high short and screws up in the long regarding the u.s. skaters.
the u.s. skaters has to work for it and they don't alot of times. so the u.s. skaters get beat. (my thoughts and opinion only)
i don't think it is cycle. i think the other countries have caught up and is surpassing the u.s. women skaters if the u.s. women skaters don't take the competition seriously and fight for it. if the u.s. women skaters expect hand outs and expect being held up because of such and such reason. if they fight rachel, alissa prove can hold their own,
with ashely , mirai, caroline zhang, has to fight for it and prove want itand skate for it, clean up their individual issue regarding technique and attitude of give it to us because of such and such.our younger crop, gao, agnes and other skaters jjust might take time-for me they have a bit better technqiue= but my opinion.
with ashely , mirai, caroline zhang, has to fight for it and prove want itand skate for it, clean up their individual issue regarding technique and attitude of give it to us because of such and such.our younger crop, gao, agnes and other skaters jjust might take time-for me they have a bit better technqiue= but my opinion.
Rachael's technique is quite sound. Her lutz and flip are fine. Her loops, salchows, and toes are as good as anyone's out there. She's a technical skater. What's wrong is the judges don't like her style.
I think Rachael would be more successful under 6.0. Look at Tara, Sarah. A typical Rachael FS could give them a run for their Olympics FS.
I think Rachael would be more successful under 6.0. Look at Tara, Sarah. A typical Rachael FS could give them a run for their Olympics FS.
I think the problem is that to do well and move up through the levels, the judges reward the more difficult jumps - regardless of how they are performed. Who cares about skating skills and speed when a 10 year old can do a 3(F)Lz? Then, the skaters grow, and their jumps go, because there technique was never good in the first place.
Also, it seems the USFS prefers to fit all female skaters into a typical uber feminine, princess-y style that doesn't fit everyone and gets very boring. Very few of the American lady skaters show originality or true personality on the ice.
Also, it seems the USFS prefers to fit all female skaters into a typical uber feminine, princess-y style that doesn't fit everyone and gets very boring. Very few of the American lady skaters show originality or true personality on the ice.
I think Rachael actually needs to have an assistant coach that will focus on polishing her skating to make her look stunning. Someone who is the equivalent of Tarasova and Morozov, except they wouldn't take over as her main coach.
I bet she won't do it though. She is not one to frequently change coaches and find new people to help her with various aspects of her skating.
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A lull, I'd say. I think we might still be stuck in a 6.0 mindset, as you can see many of our skaters are strong technically but are mediocre at best at the second mark.
I hope the next crop can change that...or maybe Nagasu will pull it together and show us what she can do.
I hope the next crop can change that...or maybe Nagasu will pull it together and show us what she can do.
Or maybe it's the system itself. I don't think artistry is being rewarded enough (I mean what does the PCS really tells us?) as much as how many points one can earn with transitions/choreography. Or maybe it's time US should look forward to crowning princes rather than princesses.
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2010
In my opinion, technique is not just about jumps. Skating skills, edges, and spins are also part of it. When those are taught properly at a young age, the skater would at least have the tools they need to develop their artistry.
Artistry is much harder to teach than technical skills. It is hard to see some of our most talented artists such as Alissa saddeled by lack of technical skills. Frank revamped and solidified Mirai's technique and that is why she has a chance of being a contender. Here's hoping the same would happen to Alissa. Even a so-called technical skater such as Rachael had to spend some time fixing her flutz and her skating skills and spins leave much to be desired.
Artistry is much harder to teach than technical skills. It is hard to see some of our most talented artists such as Alissa saddeled by lack of technical skills. Frank revamped and solidified Mirai's technique and that is why she has a chance of being a contender. Here's hoping the same would happen to Alissa. Even a so-called technical skater such as Rachael had to spend some time fixing her flutz and her skating skills and spins leave much to be desired.
[Also, it seems the USFS prefers to fit all female skaters into a typical uber feminine, princess-y style that doesn't fit everyone and gets very boring. Very few of the American lady skaters show originality or true personality on the ice.[/QUOTE]
I would say that is a problem in general in ladies figure skating. Everyone of every nationality seems to pick heavy, somber music, and the dresses and the hairdos are very similar. My mother saw some of the top skaters at one competition--all Asians, all with buns, all skating to soft, slow music--and remarked "They're all fake Michelles." I think that may be a problem.
There used to be more of a variety of "types." You had your pure jumpers (Midori, Tonya, Surya, Debi), your show-girl types (Elaine, Liz, Katarina, Nicole) and a few that were harder to place (Irina, Oksana, Nancy.) Now everyone from every country is trying to be a fake Michelle--graceful, balletic and skating to very heavy music-- except for that one new Japanese girl (let's see how long she'll be unique--my guess is, we've seen the last of her skating to fast jazz.) I think the pressure to be that "type" did hurt the career of Kimmie Meisner, who always seemed very tomboyish to me--not a ballerina type at all. I'm glad Rachael is trying to break the mold and find a look and style more her own. I wish Ashley would. She seems to be losing some of her uniqueness as the years progress.
As for Alissa and Mirai--they are naturally ballerina types. Now let's see if they can land their jumps.
I would say that is a problem in general in ladies figure skating. Everyone of every nationality seems to pick heavy, somber music, and the dresses and the hairdos are very similar. My mother saw some of the top skaters at one competition--all Asians, all with buns, all skating to soft, slow music--and remarked "They're all fake Michelles." I think that may be a problem.
There used to be more of a variety of "types." You had your pure jumpers (Midori, Tonya, Surya, Debi), your show-girl types (Elaine, Liz, Katarina, Nicole) and a few that were harder to place (Irina, Oksana, Nancy.) Now everyone from every country is trying to be a fake Michelle--graceful, balletic and skating to very heavy music-- except for that one new Japanese girl (let's see how long she'll be unique--my guess is, we've seen the last of her skating to fast jazz.) I think the pressure to be that "type" did hurt the career of Kimmie Meisner, who always seemed very tomboyish to me--not a ballerina type at all. I'm glad Rachael is trying to break the mold and find a look and style more her own. I wish Ashley would. She seems to be losing some of her uniqueness as the years progress.
As for Alissa and Mirai--they are naturally ballerina types. Now let's see if they can land their jumps.
- Joined
- Nov 7, 2007
I think parents are also susceptible to this sort of thinking as well (at least, from some skating parents at a rink I used to frequent). When you're paying a coach exorbitant sums, parents usually want to get their money's worth and visible results--they want to see their kid be a prodigy and land a 2A....or a 3(f)lz! This was especially true under 6.0, when technique issues such as flutzes and lips were not very heavily penalized at all. It's sometimes difficult for a coach to have their students spend hours working on something fundamental like stroking when the results of this are not so tangible.
But it's difficult to blame the parents--skating is a very expensive sport for most families and it's understandable why parents would want to see tangible results from their investments.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
There's also the situation where the coach "sells" the parents - "little Mary is a prodigy - look she's doing double Sals at the age of 6 (which would get a << and has very poor technique, barely leaves the ice, has a sketchy three turn...) and I will have her landing all her triples by 10 if she has 5 lessons a week with me" and those lessons are spent teaching little Mary "double" and "triple" jumps that won't be sustained when Mary is 4'6". At competition, the coach acts all surprised when little Mary gets all her jumps <<
But do you think coaches would knowingly teach bad technique just to sell the parents on the lessons? That seems so counterproductive, especially since the young girl will have to be forced to unlearn and relearn all of those jumps with proper technique. Why build a house that you'll later have to tear down and rebuild from the ground up? It seems like no reasonable coach would want to do that.
more competition from different countries, and deeper fields in russia, japan.
finland, korea, italy is now competing for medals, along with the usual countries of japan, russia, canada.
also it seems some of the u.s girls in my opinion don't fight for it. expect it to come.
in old days a fall or pop jumped took you out of medal contention--now a days it keeps you in medal contention plus winning.
old days- (6.0) you had to skate clean-no falls to win, not today skaters and screw up and still win. so therefore more competition for (messy skates ) for medals from other countries.
finland, korea, italy is now competing for medals, along with the usual countries of japan, russia, canada.
also it seems some of the u.s girls in my opinion don't fight for it. expect it to come.
in old days a fall or pop jumped took you out of medal contention--now a days it keeps you in medal contention plus winning.
old days- (6.0) you had to skate clean-no falls to win, not today skaters and screw up and still win. so therefore more competition for (messy skates ) for medals from other countries.
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
I don't know why a coach would do this, but I have (and continue) to see these kinds of situations (a variety of coaches, rinks in our area). Coach shows "progress" with small, muscled, really cheated jumps and tells the parents "little Mary landed a double loop today!" when in actuality little Mary turned forward on the toe, jumped 3/4X in the air about 1" off the ice and landed short of forward on the toe pick and turned backward which is NOT a double loop. By the time little Mary is a Juvenile or Intermediate, she's not doing well in competition and the parents start coach shopping and they don't get why a coach has to break something back down to basics and more or less start over. Sometimes this doesn't become an issue until little Mary is a Junior lady working on 3's the same way and starts to grow...
Actually, this is exactly what I suspected. A nightmare scenario really: young girls need to start with the right technique!
- Joined
- Oct 22, 2005
This is a case of "buyer beware" and for parents to really understand what they are buying instead of buying into a load of cr@p. When people ask me since I've been around skating for so long, I typically suggest they watch lessons with a variety of coaches and see how the coach's skaters are doing in competition before believing that little Mary is going to be an Olympic champion.
Granted, I don't say ALL coaches do this!
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2003
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- Joined
- Dec 29, 2004
IMO, this is one of those six eggs / half a dozen issues. I believe the loss of figures is a big part of this issue... as anyone over the age of 30 who skated competitively will tell you: tracking figure 8s for hours have a way of correcting your skating technique. Also, I think American fans have been spoiled by a string of high powered skaters: Kwan, Kristi, Sasha, and even Tara. But all of these skaters, even Kwan, had technique issues sometimes but under 6.0 it wasn't a deal breaker as long as you had a complete set of triples. Under CoP, you don't need the full set and can compete with even four as long as you have the strength to add a 2xl on the end. Yuna would've been the best skater we never saw on tv because under 6.0 she wouldn't make the final flight. Additionally - Tara and Sarah wouldn't have OGM under CoP. Michelle would have two. Its just the way it goes...
This new crop of American ladies skaters are apart of a drought that happens from time to time. Mirai will get better, I hope. As will Rachel. Caroline's body doesn't seem to embrace her figure skating dreams - the bad technique just underscores this sad fact. The one who I can't understand is Ashley. All the potential - none of the will. Its kinda sad. Here's wishing them all the best.
This new crop of American ladies skaters are apart of a drought that happens from time to time. Mirai will get better, I hope. As will Rachel. Caroline's body doesn't seem to embrace her figure skating dreams - the bad technique just underscores this sad fact. The one who I can't understand is Ashley. All the potential - none of the will. Its kinda sad. Here's wishing them all the best.
Why not? I don't understand how you draw that conclusion.
Just because she didn't do triple loops? But she wouldn't need that to make top 6 in the short and qualify for the final flight -- only 2-3 triples are needed in the short program
Translating top 6 SP into medals is a different story. But Fumie Suguri managed to do so a few times without trying the loop. Elena Liashenko managed a few European medals. If they could do it, Yuna surely could.
