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Thread: Men - Long Program

  1. #181
    Custom Title Joesitz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gmyers View Post
    Oda and Takahashi too tired for quads? I know Oda hit a quad in practice but couldn't in competition. I don't know what that is about. Takahashi hit a quad at Japan Open and NHK but gone at Skate America? Mahbanoozadeh is not even up to quads and actually he starts with a 3T as a tactical move because he does a waltz jump first. I think it was a waltz jump. So after THE QUAD IS BACK!! reports no medalist in mens in Skate America does even one. Pfft to the whole competition. Waste of time.
    Good analysis. Nobi went for one and FELL. Had he landed it, would it have made him the Winner? I don't know how much he got as 'partial credit'. This is fine for fans who understand the scoring, but for entertainment fans, it's perplexing.

    But didn't Dai make more errors elsewhere than Oda? It was an interesting RESULT. Who has the better reputation?

    It was vdPerren who made the Quad and it was nice to see he finally got decent scores, but he's never had a reputation. It was Mahbanoozadeh who skated a clean routine with flair but he too, does not have a reputation - maybe this comp he'll begin to have one.

    There is still a valid MOD SQUAD with several members, but there is also a good case for using strategy especially for REPUTATION skaters.

  2. #182
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    It is a stupid rule. It is supposed to be a skating competition, not a who-can-think-on-the-foot competition. Such scoring lacks "validity" from the standpoint of Testing Theory, and hence it is beyond my wildest ken that the skating community has quietly accepted its existence for so many years.
    I think somewhere along the line the ISU completely forgot that there used to be a technical program and a free program.
    We saw Mirai lose a bronze medal last week and Nobu lose a gold medal this week for the crime of doing more in their LP.

    Something seems wrong when this system tells us Chan can blunder his way through an SP and receive such a high score but skaters adding more in their LP are penalized beyond the point of anything that comes close to feeling like a sport or athletic competition.

    Do real sports have rules that say more is less?

    Poor Oda - by the way he skated at his GP events he should have won two gold medals.
    Why does that matter? It matters because the CoP is based on reputation for the pcs and Oda will receive less than Dai at the GPF.

    To have any chance to beat Dai at the GPF Oda will have to clearly outskate him.
    If Oda only outskates Dai by a little and deserves to win what will happen?

    Because this system is so far from being fair Dai will win on the strength of reputation scoring in the pcs. I like both skaters but don't like it when the second best program wins the Gold.

    I still like to watch skating but don't take the placements so seriously because of the reputation scoring and odd, anti-sporting rules. The similarity of the SP and LP also makes many competitions feel less exciting than they felt in the past.

    I thought Nobu outskated Dai last night,,,,,and if I were judging I would have placed Nobu first without a second thought.
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-14-2010 at 09:45 AM.

  3. #183
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    Quote Originally Posted by skatinginbc View Post
    It is a stupid rule. It is supposed to be a skating competition, not a who-can-think-on-the-foot competition. Such scoring lacks "validity" from the standpoint of Testing Theory, and hence it is beyond my wildest ken that the skating community has quietly accepted its existence for so many years.
    The short program requires a combination jump. Often, skaters screw up the first jump in the intended combination and have to think on their feet and make sure they add that to the second one, otherwise they're penalized (also what happened to Oda). Do you believe that's stupid too? The penalty might be excessive, but the rule isn't.

    Do people actually think that Oda deserves to beat Daisuke on PCS? Really? That's not reputation, that's acknowledging that one guy has far greater artistry on the ice (in terms of musical interpretation, performance and exeuction and choreography). Nobu's program is boring, has very little connection to the music and is uninteresting overall. Dai displayed more personality and artistry in that first step sequence than Oda did in the whole program. Even if he was lacking.

    Okay, janetfan, go to the rules and score Dai and Nobu. How would you have scored Nobu first? Would you have artificially inflated his scores to make sure he's first? I'm genuinely curious about this, because these proclamations are so frustrating from my viewpoint.
    Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 11-14-2010 at 09:52 AM.

  4. #184
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    The short program requires a combination jump. Often, skaters screw up the first jump in the intended combination and have to think on their feet and make sure they add that to the second one, otherwise they're penalized (also what happened to Oda). Do you believe that's stupid too? The penalty might be excessive, but the rule isn't.

    Do people actually think that Oda deserves to beat Daisuke on PCS? Really? That's not reputation, that's acknowledging that one guy has far greater artistry on the ice (in terms of musical interpretation, performance and exeuction and choreography). Nobu's program is boring, has very little connection to the music and is uninteresting overall. Dai displayed more personality and artistry in that first step sequence than Oda did in the whole program. Even if he was lacking.

    Okay, janetfan, go to the rules and score Dai and Nobu. How would you have scored Nobu first? Would you have artificially inflated his scores to make sure he's first? I'm genuinely curious about this, because these proclamations are so frustrating from my viewpoint.
    If in the CoP the tech is supposedly worth 70% and the artistry 30% I would place Oda first since his tech seemed better to me last night. Not much else to think of - unless I want to pump up Dai's pcs enough so he can win.

    As far as artistry - I give Dai the edge in theatrics - but it is not like Oda is a robot out there.
    Oda had crisper jumps last night and better spins. He also seemed faster. Isn't that the way to judge a sporting event and a system that is based on athletic abilty over artistry?

  5. #185
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    I see their difference in pcs scores as a combination of reputation and their actual performance. It doesn't make sense for Oda to beat Daisuke in performance and interpretation, but he deserved to be ahead of Daisuke in transitions, no question. Some of the entrances into his jumps are just insane, in addition to having elements like ina bauers and spread eagles.

    Oda did a 4t, 3f-3t, and a 3l-3t< without being penalized. Shouldn't this violate the Zayak rule or do quads or downgraded jumps not count?

  6. #186
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    If in the CoP the tech is supposedly worth 70% and the artistry 30% I would place Oda first since his tech seemed better to me last night. Not much else to think of - unless I want to pump up Dai's pcs enough so he can win.

    As far as artistry - I give Dai the edge in theatrics - but it is not like Oda is a robot out there.
    Oda had crisper jumps last night and better spins. He also seemed faster. Isn't that the way to judge a sporting event and a system that is based on athletic abilty over artistry?
    Okay, but where. Saying that you'd do so doesn't mean anything. Where do you feel Dai was overmarked technically/Oda undermarked? Where do you feel Dai's PCS were inflated unfairly due to reputation?

    Lets make it analagous to a court case. The outcome of the court case should be determined by facts and law. The intepretation of the law as applied to these specific facts determines the verdict. Anything else makes a mockery of the system. But it's emotional too. It's very easy to make an emotional decision based on the feelings surrounding the case, and consequently, many people dismiss decisions emotionally, because they don't satisfy or take those emotions into account. You feel Oda was better technically. Does the law (the COP rules) and the facts (what was on the ice) taken together support that assertion, regardless of feelings?

  7. #187
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    Whether or not people like the rule that did Oda in, the fact is the rule has been in place for a long time. IF this mistake was a one time thing, it would be one thing. But Oda makes this mistake all the time. It cost him a spot on the Olympic team, it cost him I believe a World Bronze medal, and he has continued to do things. So I'm not sure why anyone should feel sorry for someone who refuses to learn to count.

  8. #188
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Okay, but where. Saying that you'd do so doesn't mean anything. Where do you feel Dai was overmarked technically/Oda undermarked? Where do you feel Dai's PCS were inflated unfairly due to reputation?

    Lets make it analagous to a court case. The outcome of the court case should be determined by facts and law. The intepretation of the law as applied to these specific facts determines the verdict. Anything else makes a mockery of the system. But it's emotional too. It's very easy to make an emotional decision based on the feelings surrounding the case, and consequently, many people dismiss decisions emotionally, because they don't satisfy or take those emotions into account. You feel Oda was better technically. Does the law (the COP rules) and the facts (what was on the ice) taken together support that assertion, regardless of feelings?
    Fair enough.
    Tell you what, I concede that you know more about the CoP than I do. And I am willing to accept your analogy about law = rules.

    I don't have a score sheet handy and only saw each program once as it was streamed last night.
    As a fan I feel entilted to express opinions. My opinion , my preference was for Oda last night.

    I like the way Dai moves but his theatrical faces and non-skating gestures are worth very little advantage when I score/rate skaters. Although Dai is much more theatrical since this is a skating contest and not an acting contest I give a point more to Dai for that. That's all....

    I thought Oda had the better jumps, better spins and was faster. That should win him the tech. But Dai was better on the steps....

    For the artistry - the actual blades on ice part - Oda again seemed faster, (I have recently learned that SS counts in every category ) but Dai was more expressive with his body line and positions. I don't count poses or headbanging moves not accompanied by good flow for any points so Dai will get fewer points with me than from others


    I thought Oda's tech trumped Dai's artistry last night.

    Can you give me your breakdown based on the CoP as to why Dai won last night?
    I am not sure about the penalty for Oda's two solo 3A's last night - if it is severe then mabye I could place Dai first. Same with the extra jumping pass - how many potential points did Oda lose on that?

    See, my opinion is that Oda skated better last night. Any win for Dai has less to do with how they skated and with the rules becoming more important than "how the game was played."

    You are a soccer fan - and I am sure you hate games ruined by non-playing related interpretations of the rules, and officiating that takes the game out of the player's hands with too many and/or inconsistant cards.

    That is what I saw last night and I don't like it anymore in skating than I do in soccer.

  9. #189
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    I don't know if anybody posted about this already, but did anyone notice Shawn Sawyer did two 3-jump combinations? And he didn't get called! http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf

  10. #190
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    Quote Originally Posted by burntBREAD View Post
    I don't know if anybody posted about this already, but did anyone notice Shawn Sawyer did two 3-jump combinations? And he didn't get called! http://www.isuresults.com/results/gp..._FS_Scores.pdf
    That's because the 2F-L-3L counts as a jump sequence, not a 3 jump combination.

  11. #191
    Tripping on the Podium
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc
    It cost him a spot on the Olympic team,
    Sorry, but it's not true.

  12. #192
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    Quote Originally Posted by Scout View Post
    That's because the 2F-L-3L counts as a jump sequence, not a 3 jump combination.
    No, they changed the rules this season so that a half-loop counts as a 1Lo, so something like 3T-1/2Lo-3S (like what Joannie does) would actually count as a 3-jump combination, it would be written as 3T-1Lo-3S. You can see it on Alena Leonova's protocols this season

  13. #193
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    Quote Originally Posted by burntBREAD View Post
    No, they changed the rules this season so that a half-loop counts as a 1Lo, so something like 3T-1/2Lo-3S (like what Joannie does) would actually count as a 3-jump combination, it would be written as 3T-1Lo-3S. You can see it on Alena Leonova's protocols this season
    Thanks for pointing that out! I wasn't aware of that rule change. Maybe it's like Oda's two 3A - they both count, but one of them has the "+SEQ" next to it, and it is only worth 0.8 of its base value.

  14. #194
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    Quote Originally Posted by carignan View Post
    Sorry, but it's not true.
    Yes it did. Oda won Japanese Nationals until it turned out he was scored incorrectly and he got a combination taken off.

  15. #195
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    The short program requires a combination jump. Often, skaters screw up the first jump in the intended combination and have to think on their feet and make sure they add that to the second one, otherwise they're penalized (also what happened to Oda). Do you believe that's stupid too? The penalty might be excessive, but the rule isn't.
    I beg to differ. The rule is good, so is the penalty. That particular element as you mentioned is to measure a skater's ability to perform a combination jump. Failing to do so rightfully deserves the penalty. However, your example has nothing to do with my original argument. What I disagreed with is the loss of point due to doing more than required. Say, if an element is meant to measure the ability of doing a single jump, whoever makes it a successful combo should receive a score for the first jump (because he demonstrated the ability of doing that jump), and the added-on, though not counting as a combination, may or may not receive a bullet toward his GOE depends on the quality. By discounting the whole element, the score misrepresents what it is meant to measure, i.e., one's ability to do that single jump, and hence it is not a valid measurement.
    Last edited by skatinginbc; 11-14-2010 at 02:01 PM.

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