Men - Long Program

[skatinginbc]

Whether or not people like the rule that did Oda in, the fact is the rule has been in place for a long time. IF this mistake was a one time thing, it would be one thing. But Oda makes this mistake all the time. It cost him a spot on the Olympic team, it cost him I believe a World Bronze medal, and he has continued to do things. So I'm not sure why anyone should feel sorry for someone who refuses to learn to count.

Something being in place for a long time does not warrant its rightfulness. One may argue that Oda is stupid for his inability to learn from prior mistakes. But IQ should not be a "critical" element of the scoring system aimed to measure skating abilities. I said "critical" because there have been many cases where one lost a medal due to stupidity. A good scoring system should minimize (and I understand it is impossible to totally eliminate) such interfering factors. At least, it should not be so critical enough that one would lose his gold multiple times for being stupid.

[Mrs. P]

Yes it did. Oda won Japanese Nationals until it turned out he was scored incorrectly and he got a combination taken off.

You probably want to clarify that you're talking about the 2006 Olympics. That year Japan only had one spot because Honda withdrew from Worlds and Daisuke finished in 15th (wow that's hard to believe!).

That said, i do think it's sad we're talking more about math then the actual performances. Yes, I understand rules are rules, but I also can understand the frustration some folks have here.

[ImaginaryPogue]

janetfan, I'll do as you request after the ladies free tonight.

skatingbc, your assertion was that it's not a "thinking-on-your-feet" competition is what my response was positioned toward

a) A fourth combo is defined as an illegal element, the same as a backflip.
b) Doing an illegal element incurs a penalty.
c) The question then becomes, should someone who does an illegal element receive the exact same credit as someone who doesn't? If you believe so, then yes - simply removing the the 2-2 of the 3-2-2 is fair. IF not, and you think an illegal element should incur an actual penalty, then the question becomes how much?

[Mrs. P]

For those who are curious about where Armin Mahbanoozadeh's great musicality comes from -- just check out his amazing piano playing skills, including his dedications to Mao Asada!

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrNimra#p/u/2/cpgbWcDwWrE

Love it!

[carignan]

Oda won Japanese Nationals until it turned out he was scored incorrectly and he got a combination taken off.

Yes, this is correct. But in fact, according to JSF's selection criteria at that time (total accumulated points during 04-05 and 05-06) Daisuke would have been selected even if he placed 2nd behind Nobu. That's also why Miki was selected as a member of the Olympic team.

I really feel sorry for Nobu about the incident. But I'm also annoyed with the media who tries to mislead people again and again in order to make it more dramatic. Sorry, this is very off-topic.

[FTnoona]

Sorry guys totally irrelevant to the discussion you guys are having right now about CoP. I always thought that Daisuke had a problem with going on the outside edge for his flip? He got called for that at NHK, but now in the FS at Skate America he is dinged on both his lutz for being on the wrong edge. Nobu got edge calls on their lutz too. So he has problems on both jumps?

[burntBREAD]

Sorry guys totally irrelevant to the discussion you guys are having right now about CoP. I always thought that Daisuke had a problem with going on the outside edge for his flip? He got called for that at NHK, but now in the FS at Skate America he is dinged on both his lutz for being on the wrong edge. Nobu got edge calls on their lutz too. So he has problems on both jumps?

Dai has a problem with a flutz, I've never seen him with a lip, so that might just have been odd judging at NHK. Oda's lutz edge is always in the gray area--it would be an "!" from past rules, so it could be called "e" this time, maybe not.

[Bluebonnet]

Something being in place for a long time does not warrant its rightfulness. One may argue that Oda is stupid for his inability to learn from prior mistakes. But IQ should not be a "critical" element of the scoring system aimed to measure skating abilities. I said "critical" because there have been many cases where one lost a medal due to stupidity. A good scoring system should minimize (and I understand it is impossible to totally eliminate) such interfering factors. At least, it should not be so critical enough that one would lose his gold multiple times for being stupid.

The rule is a rule whether it's a stupid rule or not. You want to be in the game, you'd better follow the rule until it changes.

[chloepoco]

For those who are curious about where Armin Mahbanoozadeh's great musicality comes from -- just check out his amazing piano playing skills, including his dedications to Mao Asada!

http://www.youtube.com/user/MrNimra#p/u/2/cpgbWcDwWrE

Love it!

What a talented young man!! And how sweet is that--playing a tribute to Mao?

[Mrs. P]

TES

Armin Mahbanoozadeh, USA – 73.62
Kevin Van Der Perren — 69.87
Daisuke Murakami, JPN — 68.83
Nobunari Oda, JPN – 68.17
Daisuke Takahashi, JPN – 64.95
Shawn Sawyer, CAN – 63.10
Stephen Carriere, USA — 62.28
Nan Song, CHN — 60.55
Adrian Schultheiss, SWE — 60.21
Adam Rippon, USA — 57.94
Denis Ten, KAZ — 54.69
Viktor Pfeifer, AUT — 53.02

GOE

Armin Mahbanoozadeh, USA – 8.70
Nan Song, CHN — 5.09
Daisuke Takahashi, JPN – 3.72
Daisuke Murakami, JPN — 2.61
Shawn Sawyer, CAN – 2.3
Kevin Van Der Perren — 1.94
Nobunari Oda, JPN – 1.56
Adam Rippon, USA — 1.28
Adrian Schultheiss, SWE — .81
Stephen Carriere, USA — 0.36
Viktor Pfeifer, AUT — -2.35
Denis Ten, KAZ — -10.10

Some interesting numbers here...

[museksk8r]

^ Armin represents USA, not Japan.

[Mrs. P]

Thanks! It's corrected! Sorry bout that.

[skatinginbc]

janetfan, I'll do as you request after the ladies free tonight.

skatingbc, your assertion was that it's not a "thinking-on-your-feet" competition is what my response was positioned toward

a) A fourth combo is defined as an illegal element, the same as a backflip.
b) Doing an illegal element incurs a penalty.
c) The question then becomes, should someone who does an illegal element receive the exact same credit as someone who doesn't? If you believe so, then yes - simply removing the the 2-2 of the 3-2-2 is fair. IF not, and you think an illegal element should incur an actual penalty, then the question becomes how much?

First of all, I am not skatingbc, who is a different poster unrelated to me. My handle is skatinginbc, just in case you overlooked it.
Secondly, you sort of lost me, to be frank. So I am going to answer point by point.

a) A fourth combo is an illegal element.
It depends. I think it should receive no credit if done outside the maximum jumping passes. Should it receive penalty? Oh, Yes, as much as, but no more than, doing too many crossovers, spins or step sequences. By the way, is there a specified penalty concerning too many spins or step sequences?

b) Doing an illegal element incurs a penalty.
I don't want to get into a lengthy discussion about which element should be considered "illegal". As far as a fourth combo goes, if it is done within maximum jumping passes, why discredit the whole thing? A 3luz is still a 3luz, no matter as a single jump or as the first jump of a combo. Or do they require completely different skills?

c) Should someone who does an illegal element receive the exact same credit as someone who doesn't?
Again, it depends on what constitues "illegal". I would like to see the first jump of a fourth combo treated as a single jump and the rest as the jump exit, which, if done well, could receive a bullet for GOE.

[ImaginaryPogue]

My apologies to the misidentified handle. For what it's worth, you've lost me with your repsonse, so insert shrug here. I'm not really sure how a 2-2 can be considered part of the jump exit, or why it should, for starters.

[Mathman]

Plan your skate, skate your plan.

Oda should skate the program that he prepared and practiced all season. If he misses an element, OK, on to the next. That way the problem of extra combos and the like will never come up.