Reliable Rachael and Reputation

janetfan · Nov 16, 2010

She is reliable but why isn't her reputation better with the Intl judges?

Many thought Rachael won SA last week and even comments I have read from posters who say they are not a big fan of her skating thought she won.

How did a new senior skater in only her second event - and making a few mistakes - beat Rachael in the pcs?

Is this a matter of "reputation scoring" and do some get the feeling that Rachael's pcs were fixed in the judges minds before she even skated?

I often read the beauty of the CoP is that skaters and coaches can study their scores and determine what they need to work on to improve their skating and scores.

Based on last years results at the GPs, Olympics and Worlds does it appear that Tom Z came up with any type of plan to boost Rachael's scores in the all important pcs?

My thoughts are that Racahel is one of the few Ladies in the world who can show a seven triple LP and stay on her feet. If that was so easy more would be doing it - but most don't even try let alone succeed.

I wonder about Team Flatt upping her TECH difficulty for this season when it only seemed she needed to fix up her flip - which she formerly used in one of the more consistent 3x3's.

Is there anything that can be done for Rachael to get better scores in the pcs? If not I think her scoring potential will remain good but a step away from the "elites."

I wish this determined young lady a speedy recovery and hope she is in good shape for the GPF and Natls. I may not be her biggest fan - but I admire her poise and competitive abilty when it comes time to skate.

dorispulaski · Nov 16, 2010

Thanks janetfan for starting this thread. I do think that reputation judging always plays a part in PCS. A skater is often judged by their previous outing. Rachael will be, I think, at the GPF. It is her first outing there. It is often the case that all the skaters who qualify for the GPF mystically get a bump in their PCS scores over those who don't, especially those who skate well there. I'm hoping to see that for Rachael, particularly if the crowd in Beijing (well if there are more 100 of them...) give her a standing ovation.

As to what she can do herself, skaters who are dinged for PCS really have nowhere to go other than to up their tech marks. This shouldn't be, but it is true. The second thing you can do is learn to skate faster and more powerfully, which may require a different training regimen. Ryan Bradley went to Detroit and did some dance classes to get a bit of improvement. I highly recommend this course, as IMO, all of the top male dancers have better skating skills than Patrick Chan.

I suspect Rachael is lots better than she is given credit for by people who haven't seen her live. When you see a good sized crowd giving the girl a standing O you know there is some performance quality there. Particularly when they get back they say, well, Rachael is not my favorite, but she was the star of Skate America. When a kid is better live than on TV, it's using due to stuff in the transitions, performance and skating skills area.

miki88 · Nov 16, 2010

I've posted about this in another thread but I'll just say it again. What she lacks are those intangible factors that makes a skater stand apart from the pack. The problem with Rachel is that she's so average in every aspect of her skating (with the exception of consistency) that when a skater like Kostner or Murakami comes along, she'll always lose in the second mark. She needs a makeover and she needs to develop more of personality on the ice so the judges can stop seeing her as the plain jane.

prettykeys · Nov 16, 2010

janetfan said:
Is this a matter of "reputation scoring" and do some get the feeling that Rachael's pcs were fixed in the judges minds before she even skated?

Yes.

My impression of Rachael was that of a "blah" skater until I saw her LP from this weekend on YouTube. I have to admit the one moment that I did not enjoy was when she did that spin where the girl holds the blade of her skate behind her (someone please tell me the name of this--I really like this spin position when I see it, although Rachael's looked a little flat/warped), but other than that, I was pleasantly surprised. This competition was truly Rachael's to lose, I guess her injury may have been nagging her...but she should be proud of her performance nonetheless.

dorispulaski · Nov 16, 2010

Rachael Flatt at age 12 with lovely spins and spirals (US Novice Champion)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xzvEfa_MKc&feature=related

Rachael has been nursing a bad back for a long time. Which is too bad.

blue dog · Nov 16, 2010

Rachael reminds me of a reliable skater from the 1990's, Angela Nikodinov. Remember when Angela was known as the fridge break?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWSlCb_Flqs

A year later, with a makeover, she was transformed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5p3zrEI7N0

Those who say Rachael needs a makeover are right--but this is not out of reach for her. She CAN do it.

miki88 · Nov 16, 2010

blue dog said:
Rachael reminds me of a reliable skater from the 1990's, Angela Nikodinov. Remember when Angela was known as the fridge break?:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWSlCb_Flqs

A year later, with a makeover, she was transformed!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5p3zrEI7N0

Those who say Rachael needs a makeover are right--but this is not out of reach for her. She CAN do it.

She even had a similar haircut as Rachel's. :biggrin:

It's definitely not out of reach for Rachel. First, she must get rid of that haircut. It's not doing her any favors.

dorispulaski · Nov 16, 2010

It's last year's haircut that I really disliked. This year's is fine, IMO.

But do yourself a favor, and check out the Rachael age 12 clip. It is an eye opener and tells you a lot about the problems of skaters, both physical (her back) and growing up. Those darling little elves of age twelves have a huge way to go, and a lot of it is not easy. Rachael was exquisite as a twelve year old.

evangeline · Nov 16, 2010

dorispulaski said:
But do yourself a favor, and check out the Rachael age 12 clip. It is an eye opener and tells you a lot about the problems of skaters, both physical (her back) and growing up. Those darling little elves of age twelves have a huge way to go, and a lot of it is not easy. Rachael was exquisite as a twelve year old.

Oh, I agree. Even Rachael at 14 was quite good for someone her age. This was the first time I'd ever seen Rachael, and I remember thinking that she had real potential. Just listen to the praise from Dick and Peggy!

krenseby · Nov 16, 2010

miki88 said:
I've posted about this in another thread but I'll just say it again. What she lacks are those intangible factors that makes a skater stand apart from the pack. The problem with Rachel is that she's so average in every aspect of her skating (with the exception of consistency) that when a skater like Kostner or Murakami comes along, she'll always lose in the second mark. She needs a makeover and she needs to develop more of personality on the ice so the judges can stop seeing her as the plain jane.

I have to say though, the fact that she manages to put it all together, does make a difference to me. When she rotates and lands one beautiful jump after another, the jumps combined with her other elements create a sensation of wholeness and flow precisely because everything has been done properly and not messed up. So that's a reason to appreciate her skating, I guess.

dorispulaski · Nov 16, 2010

And I liked this LP at Skate America how much she seemed to be enjoying her routine! It so much easier to enjoy something when the performer seems to be enjoying it.

It just makes you Smile.

Poodlepal · Nov 16, 2010

Possible Reasons:
1. Rachael doesn't have the perfect body type. She's neither tiny or long and skinny like Carolina. There are some spins, etc. That she can't do. She is not overweight at all--but she isn't balletic.

2. Rachael is trying to out ballerina the ballerina's at their own game and can't do it. I would do at this point jazzy, rocky, even synthesizer type of music--anything except soft classical music. She's moving in the right direction in this regard, though.

3. Her hair cut is nice, but lose that patch of black hair at the bottom. Either make it all blonde, all black, or maybe light brown with highlights. She might look good as a redhead, too. (This isn't actually a reason, but I put it as #3 anyway.

4. Possible some sort of anti-American sentiment--although it didn't affect Evan at the last Olympics or Alissa at Skate Canada. I wish they would show which judge from what country gave what score again.

5. Bad luck. She was in 4th after the short program. The rare time she doesn't skate clean is when she had a weak field. She should have won this. Also, why is she always against judges' darlings Kanako and Carolina? They've probably already decided those two will win gold and silver at worlds, if YuNa doesn't come back. Probably nobody could beat those two no matter what they do. They are female Patrick Chans.

6.

Mrs. P · Nov 16, 2010

So I rewatched the programs w/o the music and yes, it seems that Kankano actually just goes through the jumps. Rachael had a little bit of that at the beginning, but then it went away after a while.

And actually if you stop focusing on her haircut, music, whatever, you actually notice she has some nice transitions. She does take ballet classes, I believe and I could see that in action here.

PolymerBob · Nov 16, 2010

Comparing Rachael to Kanako, I would say that Rachael jumped better in the LP. Then again, I am the guy who believes skating should not just be about jumping, so maybe that is the trend in skating this season.

dorispulaski · Nov 16, 2010

I thought Rachael did quite well at telling the kind of cheesy story of "Slaughter", but it surely is not my favorite piece of music.

janetfan · Nov 16, 2010

Here is Rachael's exhibiton from SA:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUP4sjFI4b0

I like it and think she interprets the music pretty well.

Here is Kanako - a fans video that has a nice Live feeling to it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvD0wedqYHw

Mama mia - what a little firecracker! And what a nice response from the audience

Mathman · Nov 16, 2010

Why doesn't Rachael get higher program component scores? I think we should ask, compared to whom?

If we look at the numbers, Rachael's scores are consistently in the high sixes. If you get 6.75 across the board, that's a PCS of 54 (multiply by eight.

)

A skater with straight 7.25's will get 58. So far in the Grand Prix season only two skaters have scored above 58, Alissa Czisny and Carolina Kostner. Asada, Suzuki and Phaneuf have scored somewhat higher than Rachael, and Murakawa, Korpi, Makarova, LaCoste, Ando (!), and Nagasu have scored about the same.

I do not see any reason for anguish on the part of Rachael fans. Obviously she cannot out-PCS skaters like Asada and Czisny. Rachael will have to oiutjump them and let the chips come down as they may.

As for the rest, no one is concerned about Kira Korpi's component scores, or Mirai's or Murakawa's, even though they are about the same as Rachael's. There is always room for improvement, of course, but to me, Rachael is scoring right about in the range that she ought to be. She will not win by the component scores, but they will keep her close enough to take a shot at the podium by her jumps.

In any case, I don't think the judges are picking on her. I think they are judging what they see.

janetfan · Nov 16, 2010

Mathman said:
Why doesn't Rachael get higher program component scores? I think we should ask, compared to whom?

If we look at the numbers, Rachael's scores are consistently in the high sixes. If you get 6.75 across the board, that's a PCS of 54 (multiply by eight. )

A skater with straight 7.25's will get 58. So far in the Grand Prix season only two skaters have scored above 58, Alissa Czisny and Carolina Kostner. Asada, Suzuki and Phaneuf have scored somewhat higher than Rachael, and Murakawa, Korpi, Makarova, LaCoste, Ando (!), and Nagasu have scored about the same.

I do not see any reason for anguish on the part of Rachael fans, Obviously she cannot out-PCS skaters like Asada and Czisny. Rachael will have to oiutjump them and let the chips come down as they may.

As for the rest, no one is concerned about Kira Korpi's component scores, or Mirai's or Murakawa's, even though they are about the same as Rachael's. There is always room for improvement, of course, but to me, Rachael is scoring right about in the range that she ought to be. She will not win by the component scores, but they will keep her close enough to take a shot at the podium by her jumps.

In any sase, I don't think the judges are picking on her. I think they are judging what they see.

Thanks for that analysis. After Kanako won there was alot of moaning here about Kanako's pcs being too high - otherwise Rachael would have won. I did look at the scores and saw Kanako was only about a point higher.

I think the best conclusion is that Rachael lost SA with mistakes in her SP.
On the other hand Rachael is no longer the new kid on the block, has finished as high as fith at Worlds and is the US champion skating on home ice.

I think it is worth noting that her pcs leave her little wiggle room and that she needs to be cleaner than some of her rivals to have any chance to beat them.

I think Doris made a good point about the GPF. If Rachael can medal there her pcs will go up regardless of how she skates on a given night.

That is good for Rachael but does not sound very flattering to the CoP.

Just curious - if you were judging who would you have scored higher - Rachael or Kanako?

FlattFan · Nov 16, 2010

What Mathman said is fair, but it does not explain how Kanako inexplicably scored higher than Rachael on some of the components.
Interpretation
P/E
Choreography

I can see Kanako about 1 points lower on those three. If you pop and jump, hand down on another, mule kicked on 2 others, your P/E should go down, yes?

Olympia · Nov 16, 2010

evangeline said:
Oh, I agree. Even Rachael at 14 was quite good for someone her age. This was the first time I'd ever seen Rachael, and I remember thinking that she had real potential. Just listen to the praise from Dick and Peggy!

Wow to both of these videos! And she had me basically at hello when I realized that she was skating to my favorite Brahms trio. (I think it's the first piano trio, but don't quote me.) If she has this in her, I have hopes that she will be able to bring some gleam to her current performance.

Reliable Rachael and Reputation

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