Reliable Rachael and Reputation

[wonderlen3000]

Kanako beat Rachael barely, just 2 points or so and its not like her PCS is a landslide. If we are talking about Kanako getting PCS in 58-59+, then we have a problem. Kanoka skated with more speed and her jumps are huge, and because of that it might seen a little bit rush and sloopy. But do we really want to see any slow poke skating and putting us to Zzzzzzzz??
Many forgot Rachael dinge herself by blotching the Lutz combination. 2Lutz get mandatory -3GOE and more costly then singling the 2A. And both get < on their jumps. Rachael on 2 triple and Kanako on her 3loop and 2Lo, but she did pop a jump so Rachael has advantage with the new 70% rule. But Kanako close up the gap by getting good GOE on some of her jump and her spins. Overall the whole competition was very close. Ultimately it come down to what you did in the SP.
But I can understand why some might dissagree bc Rachael has been on senior a lot longer than Kanako.
But isnt the same thing happened when Kim and Asada pop into senior back in 07, beating all the ladies in both TES and PCS mark (Kanako is no where near Kim/Asada level, but she is defnitely the best junior that move to senior the past years when you compare her with some one like Makarova or Leonova).

On the lighter side, maybe Rachel should hire a PR group to talk about her more. We all knwo skating is part sport and part entertainment (right in your face and ears) lol.

[Mathman]

Please don't try and convince me of the purity and soul of ISU

They sold out to TV money decades ago.

Well, I think I will try, even so.

I don't think that money is 100% of what top-level competitive figure skating is about. OK, maybe 80%. But I still think there is something left of the amateur and Olympic ideal of "higher, faster, stronger."

There is nothing wrong with presenting figure skating in an entertaining way. But we want to make sure that it is entertaining skating rather than some other form of entertainment. If we like beauty pageants, we can watch Miss Universe. If we like show girls and fireworks we can go to Las Vegas. And if we want skating and theatrics together we can go to Stars on Ice.

But instead, we happen to like skating competitions, where superbly talented and well trained athletes demonstrate their skill with a blade.

On a separate note, if you just look at the activities of ISU President Cinquanta alone, then yes it is quite easy to come to the conclusoion that money is the ISU's only concern. That's because bringing home the bacon is the job of the CEO. It's like a college president. He or she can delegate the acedemic program to the provost, the sports program to the athletic dirsector, the groundskeeping to the custodial staff. The only thing the President has to do him/herself is hit up rich alumni for cash and lobby before the state legislature for a bigger peice of the tax pie.

I think similarly that there are a lot of people in the figure skating establishment who are indeed interested in the integrity of the sport, independant of $$$. (Then again, I believed in the Tooth Fairy until I had my wisdom teeth removed at age twenty and learned the bitter truth the hard way. )

[Joesitz]

I think you bring up a good and fresh point.
If Abbott and Flatt were IMG's athletes, would their PCS have been 'a little' higher than current scores?
Anyway, I think that power federation '+' IMG = firm infra for PCS.
(reputation + power federation + IMG = perfect triangle )

We don't know of any conspiracy theories going around since 2002 Olys which in fact, the conspiracy was confirmed. Who did Legougne(sp) conspire with?

What we have now is simply nationalistic favorities from Feds and fans. If there is enough diverse judges in a competition, we should be clear of conspiracies. However Judges are human and that's an unproveable factor.

[FlattFan]

Kanako beat Rachael barely, just 2 points or so and its not like her PCS is a landslide. If we are talking about Kanako getting PCS in 58-59+, then we have a problem. Kanoka skated with more speed and her jumps are huge, and because of that it might seen a little bit rush and sloopy. But do we really want to see any slow poke skating and putting us to Zzzzzzzz??
Many forgot Rachael dinge herself by blotching the Lutz combination. 2Lutz get mandatory -3GOE and more costly then singling the 2A. And both get < on their jumps. Rachael on 2 triple and Kanako on her 3loop and 2Lo, but she did pop a jump so Rachael has advantage with the new 70% rule. But Kanako close up the gap by getting good GOE on some of her jump and her spins. Overall the whole competition was very close. Ultimately it come down to what you did in the SP.
But I can understand why some might dissagree bc Rachael has been on senior a lot longer than Kanako.
But isnt the same thing happened when Kim and Asada pop into senior back in 07, beating all the ladies in both TES and PCS mark (Kanako is no where near Kim/Asada level, but she is defnitely the best junior that move to senior the past years when you compare her with some one like Makarova or Leonova).

On the lighter side, maybe Rachel should hire a PR group to talk about her more. We all knwo skating is part sport and part entertainment (right in your face and ears) lol.

It's not about how high Kanako's PCS was or how low Rachael's PCS was. It's about how they were relative to each others'. Kanako should not get higher PCS if PCS reflects her performance that night.
You cannot compare PCS from one event to the next and declare Kanako's PCS is low, therefore, it's ok.

[rocketry]

It's not about how high Kanako's PCS was or how low Rachael's PCS was. It's about how they were relative to each others'. Kanako should not get higher PCS if PCS reflects her performance that night.
You cannot compare PCS from one event to the next and declare Kanako's PCS is low, therefore, it's ok.

Rachael lost to Kanako on PCS by a hair at NHK Trophy when the gulf between their performances technically was much greater. Akiko also beat a pretty much pristine Miki on PCS with a lot more errors than Kanako had at Skate America. It could just be that the judges are going to prefer one program over the other no matter how well the other executes their technical elements. I guess you could attribute it to reputation, but stylistically they are very different and both have their strengths and weaknesses. When thinking in terms of PCS, I just think Rachael's are harder to identify.

[Nadine]

I read the first two pages the other day, but this thread since then has seemed to take on a life of its own! I will definitely read the rest as soon as I get the chance, interesting thoughts everyone. (:^)

But I wanted to say that it's a bit of a downer when you get back from a competition after seeing it live, and this from one that has never really liked watching skating live in the past, but Skate America has changed me a bit in this regard. Maybe it's because I was in the VIP section, not the Gold section like I was at the Olympics. When you are in the very first row you literally see everything up close & personal, and competitive skating is nothing like professional skating, two totally different birds. The former is do or die, all the skaters going all out in their quest to medal/win, whereas the latter is more of the skaters taking it easy, doing simple jumps, skating to what they like, but sometimes you get true art (ala Sasha Cohen & Oksana Baiul). Anyhow, just some thoughts...

Back to Rachael, after seeing her live I don't want to see her through a television screen anymore, lol. Seriously, now that I know how phenomenal she is in person it's a huge downer to watch her via t.v. I mean I always knew she was great from the first time I saw her at 2007 U.S. Nationals, but she's even 10times greater than that in person. There's this electricity, this spark/aura that radiates from her in person, and OMG when she lands one clean jump after another it's like a wildfire, you can actually feel the crowd getting more & more & more excited! It brought us ALL to our feet instantaneously, like we were a part of her journey, like we were the ones that had skated a clean 7 triple FS, it made us all O-N-E. There's nothing like it, even when we get together here on GS to watch IN live, it's not the same as actually being together there at the stadium, in the audience, clapping, laughing, joyous! And hearing the comments from the crowd, like "she deserved it, she deserved it!" in regards to Rachael possibly winning. (:^)

***Note: skating a clean program is underrated, I personally think a skater deserves a *bonus* for doing such, because not only is it very very RARE, but also there's nothing like it, to see a skater skate a clean program in person is awe inspiring, jaw dropping, simply magnificent!!!!!***

And lest I forget to mention Rachael is so full of spunk & personality & joy when she's skating! She really gets into the character of the program, the Betty Boop "0" face she does exactly at the moment the shot rings out & she looks the audience dead in the eye with surprise, and then immediately segues into the rest of the choreography is pure magic. You just can't take your eyes off her, and everything flows from one element to the next without interruption/breaks/falls/et al, the jumps just add to the excitement until before you know it you're standing & applauding like madly, lol! :D

Btw, she skates fast (like all the rest of the skaters). I honestly didn't see a big difference between them all except for maybe Elene G (she's like a speed demon, but even then only about 20% faster than the rest, no huge difference whatsoever). And Rachael's jumps are definitely NOT small, no way, in fact it's the same as speed, you really can't see a huge difference in person, only by millimeters. Elene G.'s are 100%, then some of the European girls are about 90%-95%, and Rachael & everybody else 85%. No biggie, none of them have Tara Lipinski or Kristi Yamaguchi's small teeny tiny jumps that relied on rotation alone to get across the ice. Rather, for the most part, American girls have average height jumps (Tonya Harding was the last American lady to have monster jumps). But that's beginning to change with Agnes Z. Still, I would rather see somebody with average-sized jumps (*not* small) land all her jumps in a 7-triple performance than someone with bigger jumps fall or make mistakes, et al land a 5-triple jump performance. Like I said before, skating clean is underrated, especially when you see it live, in person, there's nothing like it!!!!!

And that's all I have to say about that.

GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO RACHAEL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[janetfan]

It's not about how high Kanako's PCS was or how low Rachael's PCS was. It's about how they were relative to each others'. Kanako should not get higher PCS if PCS reflects her performance that night.
.

You are describing the dilema faced by judges in the 6.0 system which had to determine by comparison how to place the skaters. Ordinals based on a comparitive impression is what determined a skaters fate.

Skating fast through the music without much IN becomes more obvious when all of the components are considered as one and compared - and not when they are assigned individual scores for IN, CH, SS, PE and TR.

Who did you LIKE better - Rachael or Kanako
One gets a first place ordinal and the other a second place ordinal.

But the CoP tells us that Kanako has better IN and CH than Rachael. I don't think that was the case at all at SA.

It appears that the effects of Kanako's faster skating and flashier P/E persuaded the judges that her other components were also a bit better.

It feels like a very flawed system to me. Being faster and having a thousand megawatt smile does not mean your CH and IN are superior.

It is about all of them combined that one can try and reach a comparitive judgement and with it a placement.

I happen to love Kanako but not sure if I would have scored her over Rachael on PRESENTATION in the LP's at SA.


Scoring the presentation is subjective and not really easy under any system.

But I agree with you a more accurate test is comparing Rachael and Kanako for how they skated the LP that night.

[FlattFan]

Under the ordinal system, Rachael would have won SA in 2009, she was second in the SP, won the LP.
She would have won in NHK, 3rd in the SP, won the LP.
She would have won SA this year, 4th in the SP, won the LP, had Kanako helping her out by defeating Carolina Kostner who was 1st.

I've always said Rachael would be more successful under 6.0 than under CoP. Who's done a 7 triple LP at the Olympics and not come away with a medal? Oh wait, Midori Ito.

[Nigel]

Anyway, I think Flatt was robbed at SA. I can understand why the judges don't like her though. Flatt is not committed to skating enough. Many people believe her academic career takes the priority over skating. This could be her last season of competitive skating. If the USFSA and the judges consider that way, they can't place much expectations on her. I suspect the scoring on Flatt could be different if she had declared to aim Sochi before the season.

Flatt has consistently said in her interviews, IIRC, over the last several years that she takes skating "one day at a time, one season at a time." IMHO, that is what every athlete should do. That way, the focus is on upcoming events/games/competitions, and you are not thinking about the "big prize", ie World Cup, the top standing in tennis or golf, the Super Bowl, World Series, Olympics.... during your competitive season. Perhaps she has set goals with her coaches for the next 4 yr cycle, but chooses not to share that type of information publically. Nothing wrong with that.


Originally Posted by FlattFan
It's not about how high Kanako's PCS was or how low Rachael's PCS was. It's about how they were relative to each others'. Kanako should not get higher PCS if PCS reflects her performance that night.
.
You are describing the dilema faced by judges in the 6.0 system which had to determine by comparison how to place the skaters. Ordinals based on a comparitive impression is what determined a skaters fate.

Skating fast through the music without much IN becomes more obvious when all of the components are considered as one and compared - and not when they are assigned individual scores for IN, CH, SS, PE and TR.

Who did you LIKE better - Rachael or Kanako
One gets a first place ordinal and the other a second place ordinal.

But the CoP tells us that Kanako has better IN and CH than Rachael. I don't think that was the case at all at SA.

It appears that the effects of Kanako's faster skating and flashier P/E persuaded the judges that her other components were also a bit better.

It feels like a very flawed system to me. Being faster and having a thousand megawatt smile does not mean your CH and IN are superior.

It is about all of them combined that one can try and reach a comparitive judgement and with it a placement.

I happen to love Kanako but not sure if I would have scored her over Rachael on PRESENTATION in the LP's at SA.


Scoring the presentation is subjective and not really easy under any system.

But I agree with you a more accurate test is comparing Rachael and Kanako for how they skated the LP that night.



I think one of the components of scoring is speed, and skaters like Carolina and Kanako are very fast skaters. But speed is just ONE component of the scoring. I suspect that a number of judges world wide see a fast skater, and that influences their judging on the remainder of the PCS. Is that an acurrate assement of the other components of the PCS. Not necessarily. That is why the PCS has been broken down into separate entities. But, I think there are very few judges worldwide are willing to give a wide range of PCS scores to a skater. JMO....

[Jammers]

What Rachael lacks is the IT factor that other skaters possess. She doesn't excite people when she skates. Perfect example is at the Nationals. Even though she won most everyone in the arena thought Mirai had won. Mirai had charisma and personality which came through. Rachael just doesn't have that quality. If only we could transfer some of Rachael's competitive nerves and toughness into Mirai then we would have an american lady that could win Worlds.

[dorispulaski]

Not so.

http://www.goldenskate.com/forum/sho...l=1#post529520
Please read Nadine's post above, about seeing Rachael skate live at Skate America this last week. Obviously, if Rachael didn't have "IT" before, she must have had an "IT" transfusion this last month.

[janetfan]

What Rachael lacks is the IT factor that other skaters possess. She doesn't excite people when she skates. Perfect example is at the Nationals. Even though she won most everyone in the arena thought Mirai had won. Mirai had charisma and personality which came through. Rachael just doesn't have that quality. If only we could transfer some of Rachael's competitive nerves and toughness into Mirai then we would have an american lady that could win Worlds.

Assuming you are right - is that the best and fairest way to judge a "sporting" event?

Watching SA last weekend, as Rachael began knocking off jump after jump I did pay more attention. When she finished I said, "good girl, I think you did enough to win this."

Watching Natls last season by the time Mirai went into her final spin I literally jumped off my chair and shouted "oh my God, you won Natls again Mirai!"

I haven't had that type of reaction since the last time Michelle won Worlds. Turns out I was wrong but no doubt Mirai at her best can be very charasmatic performer.

[Joesitz]

It ocurrs to me that the figure skating judges love a little dahling precocious teenage skater trying to be a Swan Queen. For some unknown reason, they are under orders to keep the Ladies Division for little girls. One has to turn to Ice Dance to find grown ups competing.

Rachael does not have the appeal of a Tara, an Ocksana, or even a little Michelle, and now she is up against another little girl, Kanako.

Since it appears there will be a huge tie for filling up the slots for the GPF, I think she is in danger of filling one of those slots.

[Layfan]

You know, I really like this exhibition performance of Rachael's. (Thanks for the link Janetfan )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUP4sjFI4b0

She's heartfelt and elegant. Also, I love that costume of hers - (those are GREAT colors for Rachael and she should ditch the pink and fire engine red.)

I re-watched her Skate America LP just to confirm that I really did enjoy it and I did.

I've never thought Rachael's problem is musical interpretation or showing her emotions or that she's a boring skater who just jumps or that she doesn't have "it" ... She showed musicality from a very early age - as the links that Dorispulaski posted prove. I've watched those videos too and I was amazed at Rachael's polish at 12.

Rachael's problem is her lines. And it isn't just about flexibility. There is a reason that ballet dancers have to have long limbs and long necks and other attributes. As Mrs. P and others have pointed out, Rachael HAS taken ballet. Unfortunately, it isn't just about knowing how to do the movements. You have to look "right" doing them. Rachael has had back problems and her body apparently just didn't develop into a long-limbed, long-necked swan.

Oh, well. Luckily for her, figure skating is much more forgiving than ballet about that sort of thing. Rachael can jump like few other women skaters and she has musicality and determination. I think "team Rachael" has done a much better job this year of showing her off her strengths and minimizing her weaknesses. I think Janetfan may have a point that her reputation as a non-artistic skater may have held back her PCS at Skate America at least a little but hopefully Doris is right and that will change if she skates well in the final. (And gets another standing ovation )

Some of her spins still look awkward and that seems to be a weakness that is hard to mask under COP. Or is it? She has a fairly nice layback spin ... maybe some of the COP whizzes here can make suggestions about how Rachael can get points for spins and not force herself into bad positions...

Also, does anyone think Rachael seems faster this year or am I just imagining it? I thought she seemed like a much faster skater at SA and it made her look more commanding.

[Nadine]

It ocurrs to me that the figure skating judges love a little dahling precocious teenage skater trying to be a Swan Queen. For some unknown reason, they are under orders to keep the Ladies Division for little girls. One has to turn to Ice Dance to find grown ups competing.

Rachael does not have the appeal of a Tara, an Ocksana, or even a little Michelle, and now she is up against another little girl, Kanako.

Since it appears there will be a huge tie for filling up the slots for the GPF, I think she is in danger of filling one of those slots.

Interesting post, Joesitz, it made me think...

And it makes me wish that the judges would think outside the box, not allow themselves such a narrow vision of what a ladies skater should be, this is not ballet after all, wherein the prima ballerina must be around 5'6" tall, thin, fey-like, with long legs/arms/neck.

Rather, this is Figure Skating, wherein sport comes first & foremost, which is why it is classified as an athletic event and therefore allowed a place in the Olympics. So instead of thinking like that book "Little Girls in Pretty Boxes" by Joan Ryan, it's time to become open-minded, and allow for a female skater champion that does not fit the *stereotypical* view of what a ladies skater should look like (aka a ballerina).

Rachael definitely has IT, as well as charisma/charm/personality, and she's one of those extremely rare skaters I can count on one hand that consistently manage to skate clean programs no matter the pressure of the event (Michelle Kwan was another). No, she doesn't have the stereotypical ballerina body, but she does have everything else in spades! What's more, she has her OWN style, her own special brand of appeal. She's A-W-E-S-O-M-E! Don't take my word for it, go see for yourself when she's skating in your neck of the woods. I guarantee you won't be disappointed.

By the way, Skate America was such a high for me (in particular Rachael Flatt & Daisuke Takahashi), even being sick as I was, that it's hard coming down. I seriously wish I could fly to each event Rachael is skating at to see her live once again because television honestly doesn't do her justice.

Until then, I will make do with watching her beautiful exhibition piece to "I Wanna Hold Your Hand". (:^)