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Thread: Men - Short Program

  1. #76
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    When it comes to GOEs, TES can just be as subjective as PCS.
    Absolutely!

    As for PCS, falls should affect the skating skills score (you clearly don't have control of your edges/the blade when you fall), the transition score (falls interrupt the continuity of a performance), the performance-execution score (you're not maintaining the energy and mood of the performance when you go down), the choreography score (a fall is not a planned part of the choreographer's vision of the program), and the interpretation score, unless you're Valentina Marchei and you time your fall perfectly to the end of the music a la 2007 Worlds SP.

  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Did any of the other men in the top 3 fall on their *** today? Nah, didn't think so.
    And did any other men, top 3 or otherwise, come anywhere close in the quality of their Step Sequence, also a Required Element? What about the in-betweens? Did you notice many men opted to do a 3Lo instead of the more difficult 3F and Chan's 3F was very well executed, by far the best in the entire competition, as smooth as butter when he landed it. Spins wise, he is also the best of the bunch, hence higher GOE there albeit the advantage on the 3 spins are not overwhelming. Last time I checked, there are 7 elements in the SP and he bested all other men in 6 out of the 7, except the fall on the 3A, which he still fully rotated, which is the key. Now reasonable people can disagree and an argument can be made that his marks could have been slightly lower or that Abbott could have been given 1st place - it's not unreasonable, however what I take issue is your very liberal use of the word "ridiculous" without seemingly putting any real effort to understand or justify your, well, quite outrageous rant.

  3. #78
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    Quote Originally Posted by wxyz1234533 View Post
    That was what I always thought about Jeff Buttle.
    How much his program would score if he skated clean.
    and it turned out he was a world champion when he skated both programs clean.
    Jeffrey Buttle is a sublime skater.
    But even he had to skate clean to receive those high scores.

  4. #79
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    Quote Originally Posted by herios View Post
    There is something we are missing here, the judges seem to be over the top with his scores, but they are very consistent in thgeir lovefest. I have to figure out what is exactly they are seeing and we don't?
    I need to get to the bottom of this so I feel less embarrassed.
    Excuse me, who is the "we" here? Only the Queen of England refers to hersels as we.

  5. #80
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    And did any other men, top 3 or otherwise, come anywhere close in the quality of their Step Sequence, also a Required Element? What about the in-betweens? Did you notice many men opted to do a 3Lo instead of the more difficult 3F and Chan's 3F was very well executed, by far the best in the entire competition, as smooth as butter when he landed it. Spins wise, he is also the best of the bunch, hence higher GOE there albeit the advantage on the 3 spins are not overwhelming. Last time I checked, there are 7 elements in the SP and he bested all other men in 6 out of the 7, except the fall on the 3A, which he still fully rotated, which is the key. Now reasonable people can disagree and an argument can be made that his marks could have been slightly lower or that Abbott could have been given 1st place - it's not unreasonable, however what I take issue is your very liberal use of the word "ridiculous" without seemingly putting any real effort to understand or justify your, well, quite outrageous rant.
    I realize there's no point in even trying to debate this with you because you are so pro-Chan that you can't even begin to have a non-biased discussion on the matter. Therefore, there's no point in even trying. Good day!

  6. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Which portions of the PCS according to the rules do you feel were hurt by the fall and should have lowered his score?
    Don't expect any answer that makes sense within the rules, some people will complain that Chan is overscored even if he lands a Quint.

    In the Edge, there is a dedicated thread on this right now and there is even an ISU judge who posted his take to explain how P/E is being scored. Nothing more can be done if certain people refuse to be educated, then they will just have to remain seriously misinformed and it's nobody else's fault.

  7. #82
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    Before people start screaming wuzrobbing, please RELAX. Breathe and take a chill pill! No point making yourself upset!

    And now, I'd like to refer everyone to the rulebook: http://gofigureskating.com/compete/scoring.html

    There are rules and set criteria in FS. I don't always agree, but rules are rules. I can't argue against them. It took me a long time to stop judging what I saw based on overall impression, which is very 6.0, and actually realize that there are set rules and requirements for everything. Despite all the politiking, I'd like to think the judges are doing their job. No comments on the skates since I couldn't watch live.

    Under 6.0, a fall was a killer. But back then, URs and take-off edges weren't as strictly called either, so loads of skaters "cheated".

  8. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    And did any other men, top 3 or otherwise, come anywhere close in the quality of their Step Sequence, also a Required Element? What about the in-betweens? Did you notice many men opted to do a 3Lo instead of the more difficult 3F and Chan's 3F was very well executed, by far the best in the entire competition, as smooth as butter when he landed it. Spins wise, he is also the best of the bunch, hence higher GOE there albeit the advantage on the 3 spins are not overwhelming. Last time I checked, there are 7 elements in the SP and he bested all other men in 6 out of the 7, except the fall on the 3A, which he still fully rotated, which is the key. Now reasonable people can disagree and an argument can be made that his marks could have been slightly lower or that Abbott could have been given 1st place - it's not unreasonable, however what I take issue is your very liberal use of the word "ridiculous" without seemingly putting any real effort to understand or justify your, well, quite outrageous rant.
    Both Verner and Abbott did a 3Lz as their single jump, which is more difficult than the 3F....just saying.

    And do you mind if I politely ask what is so good about Chan's spins? I mean, in my opinion, he has decent positions and centering most of the time but I'm not sure what's so amazing about them. It's not like Abbott and Verner are hideous spinners either...

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    I realize there's no point in even trying to debate this with you because you are so pro-Chan that you can't even begin to have a non-biased discussion on the matter. Therefore, there's no point in even trying. Good day!
    Running away so soon? Unlike you, I can actually justify my position in plain English without using emotional rants and I don't mind when people disagree with me. It bothers me however that certain people just bash skaters they don't like no matter what, justified or otherwise.

  10. #85
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    And do you mind if I politely ask what is so good about Chan's spins? I mean, in my opinion, he has decent positions and centering most of the time but I'm not sure what's so amazing about them. It's not like Abbott and Verner are hideous spinners either...
    Chan is the best spinner because wallylutz says so . . . haven't you seen the pattern developing? wallylutz is the all knowing one.

  11. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Excuse me, who is the "we" here? Only the Queen of England refers to hersels as we.
    Well, I'm with Herios. So two us at least makes "we". I'm also not seeing what the judges are seeing in Chan.

  12. #87
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wallylutz View Post
    Running away so soon? Unlike you, I can actually justify my position in plain English without using emotional rants and I don't mind when people disagree with me. It bothers me however that certain people just bash skaters they don't like no matter what, justified or otherwise.
    If you don't like my posts, you can always put me on ignore.

  13. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigsisjiejie View Post
    Chan's combo and 3rd jump were wonderful, but the fall on the 3A???

    This is where I have a big problem with taking off only -1.00 for a fall. The fall deduction should be much more severe and particularly in the short program. And no way is Chan's PCS that much better than someone like an Abbott. Overscored, as usual. Chan will win this even if he falls 5 times in the free.

    I have no idea if there's a worldwide pro-Chan conspiracy in judging, but I think I'm definitely seeing a herd mentality on the PCS side. Doesn't mean the herd (lemmings?) always get it right.
    How funny that I saw a herd mentality on anti-Chan comments. You are right, the herd does not always get it right.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    Both Verner and Abbott did a 3Lz as their single jump, which is more difficult than the 3F....just saying.

    And do you mind if I politely ask what is so good about Chan's spins? I mean, in my opinion, he has decent positions and centering most of the time but I'm not sure what's so amazing about them. It's not like Abbott and Verner are hideous spinners either...
    Neither of their 3Lz is as well executed as Chan's 3F. Chan's 3F, in this particular SP, was very, very well executed. GOE considered, it's either a wash or edge to Chan. Personally, I will go for the latter.

    You are right, Chan's edge in the spins is relatively small, like I said earlier. But they tend to better executed than Abbott and much better than Verner, whose spins are not as pretty in the positions / lines he hit. So his spins has a tiny edge over Abbott mostly due to better execution overall, e.g. better speed and slightly better positions, but reasonably more than Verner, GOE considered. In any event, spins are not the major differentiators anyway. Since transitions impact every element in their GOE, Chan's complex choreography and superior in-between foot work will add to his GOE in every single element he does well, boosting each element by about one bullet point in the minds of the judges. Notice sometimes even when he falls, his GOE is not -3, that's why.

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    Wowww! A perfect 4T-3T in SP from Chan?! I can't help but admire this guy's guts!

    All the skating skills educations and now definitely Chan's 4t-3t are about to win me over.
    Last edited by Bluebonnet; 11-19-2010 at 09:25 AM.

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