Pairs - Short Program | Page 3 | Golden Skate

Pairs - Short Program

smia

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 25, 2010
Kawaguchi/Smirnov are the only Russian pair that I think are a bit overscored but I really admire Yuko's determination, she's even continued through a dislocated shoulder last season. Hopefully everything is healed now. I don't think they brought the power that's necessary for this kind of music (Kazakova/Dmitriev had a much better program) but K/S's program will probably get better with more mileage.
 

oleada

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
I don't see how you can say E/L were dumped. They struggling with their 3T rotation and element levels is not exactly new, and they got higher PCS than G/E. G/E rotated their 3S and had a harder throw. Besides, if there is one thing Moskvina is really good at is making sure her teams have the highest levels possible.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Kavaguti, imo, skates like a wind-up doll, and Smirnov skates in a separate competition. They have absolutely NO RAPPORT with each other. However, the Tech was fine.

Evora/Ladwiq did a nice job and I hope got a bit of reputation here because so much of Pairs is connected to reputation.
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Some Russian dance teams are overscored, true, but Russian pairs? See how Iliushechkina/Maisuradze were dumped at Cup of China after winning Skate Canada. Even at Skate Canada they were a bit underscored, getting lower PCS than Moore-Towers/Moscovitch is just fishy. Moore-Towers doesn't even come close to Iliushechkina. Generalizing a bit but Russian pairs tend to have the lines, the elegance and style that happens to be rare in pair skating, that's why they tend to get good scores. Besides some Russian teams, there's Savchenko/Szolkowy and Takahashi/Tran who are very polished but most pairs look a bit sloppy.
Anyway before you criticise the scoring for Russian pairs perhaps you should look at the scoring for pairs from your own country. Pang/Tong: unextended lift positions, their spins also don't have great positions and unison needs work, and she has wierd posture. And I've also seen it mentioned that their skating is scratchy although I'm not in a position to judge. In any case, they get huge PCS scores as if there's nothing they need to work on. I'm sorry but a great smile is not enough to justify those kinds of presentation scores. Same thing with Shen/Zhao. 2004 Worlds, they botched a lift yet got a stream of 6.0s. At the Olympics they again botched a lift and had poor spins and again got scores as if they'd been perfect.

I was at Cup of China, and I/M weren't "dumped," they simply weren't quite as good as the ones that ended up in front of them at that particular competition. I thought the placements were correct, based on what I saw. And nobody was clean or perfect. BTW, I may be based in Beijing but am not Chinese, so can only just shrug at the "...scoring for pairs from your own country..." comment and follow-on.

At this stage of the season, strong clean pairs programs are usually pretty uncommon but of course get better as the season progresses. I didn't find G/E's lines, posture, etc. to make up for their deficiencies. I find their SP music blah and boring, and their rendition is pretty much in keeping with same. E/L had their issues, but the overall package presented should have scored higher than G/E. We'll see what the FS brings...
 

UnChosen

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 12, 2006
Some Russian dance teams are overscored, true, but Russian pairs? See how Iliushechkina/Maisuradze were dumped at Cup of China after winning Skate Canada. Even at Skate Canada they were a bit underscored, getting lower PCS than Moore-Towers/Moscovitch is just fishy. Moore-Towers doesn't even come close to Iliushechkina. Generalizing a bit but Russian pairs tend to have the lines, the elegance and style that happens to be rare in pair skating, that's why they tend to get good scores. Besides some Russian teams, there's Savchenko/Szolkowy and Takahashi/Tran who are very polished but most pairs look a bit sloppy.
Anyway before you criticise the scoring for Russian pairs perhaps you should look at the scoring for pairs from your own country. Pang/Tong: unextended lift positions, their spins also don't have great positions and unison needs work, and she has wierd posture. And I've also seen it mentioned that their skating is scratchy although I'm not in a position to judge. In any case, they get huge PCS scores as if there's nothing they need to work on. I'm sorry but a great smile is not enough to justify those kinds of presentation scores. Same thing with Shen/Zhao. 2004 Worlds, they botched a lift yet got a stream of 6.0s. At the Olympics they again botched a lift and had poor spins and again got scores as if they'd been perfect.

First of all, scores in figure skating are RELATIVE. S/Z in 2004 worlds should have gotten 6.0s simply because T/M got a bunch of 5.9 and since S/Z was still better then only 6.0s could be given. Same in the Olympics. Also, perfect in CoP is 10.0 which S/Z haven't received yet (other than from like one judge)

Secondly, quality of lifts and spins are reflected in the GoE, unless if its a massive fall that would affect the entire performance.

Lastly, lines and posture does not equal to the entire PCS

Ever since 6.0 got changed to CoP, lines and extension no longer (at least IMO not supposed to) have the huge importance they do in 6.0. One look in the program component overview and you would notice that line and extension only truly factor in 1/5th of the PC score (in performance/execution) and even then its still only a portion next to emotion, variety in tempo and a bunch of stuff unrelated to lines. I also never knew that "elegance" is now a part of program component...I've always thought that as long as your movements match the program and done at high quality then it would be marked well.

IMO this is how it should be...its figure skating, not Ice Ballet with jumps (just as it is not "ice jumping"). Theoretically, someone could choose some rock music and skate with horrible lines and should still be able to get decent SS/Transition/Choreo/Interpretation mark if the judges are marking the program objectively. (and not based on pre-determined types of "good" programs).

Back on topic however, I think G/E was placed right. They did get lower PCs in comparison to E/L, and its was the higher level TES that puts them ahead.
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Kavaguti, imo, skates like a wind-up doll, and Smirnov skates in a separate competition. They have absolutely NO RAPPORT with each other. However, the Tech was fine.

This is exactly how I feel about Kavaguti/Smirnov. I really want to like them--Smirnov seems like such a chill guy and Kavaguti works so hard and she obviously wants it so much--but there always seems to be something missing. They don't really skate as one as per the pairs ideal....

Sometimes I think that K/S really suffer from the burden of expectations, not only because they're a Russian pair, but because they're also a Moskvina pair. I guess objectively, K/S are a decent pair but (for me at least) I always expect more of them, that they show the brilliance of Mishkutenok/Dmitriev or Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze. I wonder what the pressure from their federation is like, especially with characters like Piseev lurking around.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
K/V try to do long programs too difficult for them to handle and end up making mistakes. I found their score actually quite low for a pretty clean skate. It probably worries them a bit. Maybe the Russian federation has already targeted Volosozhar & Trankov as their new #1.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
First of all, scores in figure skating are RELATIVE. S/Z in 2004 worlds should have gotten 6.0s simply because T/M got a bunch of 5.9 and since S/Z was still better then only 6.0s could be given.

The scoring at that years Worlds was also a joke. The judges were giving out 6.0s and 5.9s like candy. I actually thought the LP decision between T&M and S&Z would be closer since T&M were atleast squeeky clean and extremely precise and polished, even if not very emotional or exciting (as usual).
 

gold12345

Medalist
Joined
Dec 14, 2007
Back on topic however, I think G/E was placed right. They did get lower PCs in comparison to E/L, and its was the higher level TES that puts them ahead.

Yeah, E/L only got Level 2 on the death spiral and the SBS spins (he was quite shaky during two spin positions). They only had a Level 3 lift while the top three all had Level 4. They also received some -GOE for their bobble on the triple twist. And of course, the 3T got downgraded. There were no big errors, but the little things added up.

Aside from the random ridiculous GOE (like the three judges who gave K/S +1 on their crashy triple twist :laugh:), I don't see much wrong with the scoring.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
This is exactly how I feel about Kavaguti/Smirnov. I really want to like them--Smirnov seems like such a chill guy and Kavaguti works so hard and she obviously wants it so much--but there always seems to be something missing. They don't really skate as one as per the pairs ideal....

Sometimes I think that K/S really suffer from the burden of expectations, not only because they're a Russian pair, but because they're also a Moskvina pair. I guess objectively, K/S are a decent pair but (for me at least) I always expect more of them, that they show the brilliance of Mishkutenok/Dmitriev or Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze. I wonder what the pressure from their federation is like, especially with characters like Piseev lurking around.

I think too many people (and I mean rabid fans) are always trying to compare skaters from the past. Not everyone was a fan of M/D or B/S or for God's sake G/G. This pair is really unique in the choreography and the way they skate. I don't think anyone puts as much pressure on them as they put on themselves, and most of the time they deliver. They almost always get a medal at competitions and have never lost a GP medal in 4 years. They haven't been together for very long and I think what they have accomplished is amazing!

Moskvina hasn't always had great success with pairs, some have failed miserably.
 
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