Men's Free Program: 6:45 AM Eastern | Page 14 | Golden Skate

Men's Free Program: 6:45 AM Eastern

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
What they should do is this: at the beginning of the skating season, a week or two before the the beginnig of the Grand Prix, they should have all the top skaters come together and do a run through of both of their programs without doing the jumps. They can show it on the internet or on Universal sports in the middle of the night, where skataholics can record it or stay up with a cup of coffee.

Anyway, the judges should assign a score for edges, speed, choreography, interpretation, etc. Basically, anything that is rarely fallen on. These base scores will be made public and every skater will know their competitors base score. This will do two things: #1, a skater with a bad base score will know what technical elements he/she must land and #2, if something doesn't seem right, they will have a week to file a complaint. For the rest of the Grand Prix season, that score will be automatically added before they even skate. Only if a skater makes dramatic changes--completely different progra for example--will they be able to have a re-do before World's. (They can do it again there, as it is several months later)

Let's say Patrick Chan gets a score of 82, because of his deep edges. He will automatically have 82 points. Let's say another skater gets a 69, because he has shallow edges and knee bends. He will know that he will have to land two quads to win, so he can adjust his technical content. Or let's say another skater feels he skates as well as Patrick Chan and can't understand why he has 10 points less than him to begin with. He can file a complaint and maybe get his own score improved. Also, I think this method would do two things: it would make the competitions more fair, because they won't set them up so that one skater is unbeatable no matter what he does (i.e, Patrick never meeting Daisuke throughout the entire Grand Prix), and I think the judges will not publicly give a skater a huge advantage over everyone else if they have to do it publicly. Someone like Patrick might get a one-jump advantage over other top skaters, but not three or four.

Ah, but they'll never take my advice!

Interesting idea...but I don't think it'll work primarily because many components of PCS vary from competition to competition.

For example, Stephane Lambiel normally deserves, IMO, high 8s or even 9s for IN and PE. However, if he gives a stiff performance like he did during his Olympics LP, those marks should go down, way down. I don't see how scores at the initial sessions should matter in a case like that.

Plus I think that many skaters would have much improved IN, PE, TR and CH scores if they weren't forced to leave space and energy to do jumps in their programs anyways.....
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Chan has never been awarded for missing jumps. He doesn't miss jumps but when he falls, he is penalized just the same as every other skater. He wins for doing all aspects of the program better over all than the competitors despite the falls. He was penalized for doing a clean jump because it's against the rules, just as it was for Oda. If there were no such rules, skaters could improvise and throw in all sorts of componants particularly favorable to them. How would they be judged fairly then?

But the issue here is, is Chan truly better in all aspects of his skating and programs other than his falls? And he is so much more superior in all the other parts of his skating that he wins with 4 falls over other top skaters who skate relatively cleanly?

The thing is, many posters have pointed out areas in which Chan is most definitely NOT clearly head-and-shoulders above his competitors....that is why some of us have issues with his scoring.
 

mot

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
PS. Agree with mot in many ways but I still think overall PCS should be lower than now.

I began to wonder introduction of choreo step sequence may be a contributing factor in higher PCS this season, after listening to the comments by Kurt Browing and Lori Nicol after Daisuke's LP at SA - now that the second step sequence does not receive level just GOE, skaters like Takahashi cannot distinguish themselves from others as much and all bundled into the second mark, or something like that. Just a thought though.

It seems that PCS has been getting higher every year, as well as a season progresses, in general too - comparing the scores of the same skater over time. Is this a reflection of progress of each skater? Do we see this as a result of 'recognitions by judges' or 'gaining reputations'? Will a young skater like Patrick eventually get the full marks, considering skating skills, performance, interpretation, etc tend to improve as a skater matures? Is it right to judge and give PCS relatively to each skater's performances across the season (ie. recognising each skater's progress over time), or should it be decided relatively to the other competitors' performances? If the latter is the case, PCS should be reset at each competition and we'll see a skater receive less PCS no matter how much they improves from the previous competitions, if the others are better. (This can be the case in GPS, as field of participating skaters vary from one competition to another.) Will we be satisfied even if Skater A receives less PCS with improved performance from the previous competition, because he/she is up against better skaters this time? If PCS are always relative to other skater's performance, then the only way to judge fairly is to do so after all skaters finish skating too.

I do not have answers to any of the questions above, and I do not think judges do either. It doesn't bother me much though. Thinking and talking about them with fellow FS fans is fun in itself. Besides puzzling scores and placements never spoil my joy of watching FS - I am more concerned about the skaters' performances and how much I enjoy them than what scores they are given by the judges. But then it is personal, and I am always comfortable in differences in opinions.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
What they should do is this: at the beginning of the skating season, a week or two before the the beginnig of the Grand Prix, they should have all the top skaters come together and do a run through of both of their programs without doing the jumps. They can show it on the internet or on Universal sports in the middle of the night, where skataholics can record it or stay up with a cup of coffee.

:jaw:this is the most bizarre thing i have read here, it is meant to be a joke?
All other technical elements marks besides jumps plus the program components are supposed to reflect the day of the skate on a given competition, ok we complain about pcs inflation and judging in corridors, but this is the combination of both!!! This solution is like having a best student that deserves A for his mathematical mind and the day of exam he falters but still gets an A because he is capable of it.

Plus skaters tend to improve their components once they feel more comfortable in a program as season goes by. Many skaters never skate to their full potential on a day of competition and if pcs were given so blatantly from a prejudged event ..I dont know..this is not a sport, this would be a circus.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Everybody has been focusing on the possibility of Chan winning without the invalid combo, but he could have more likely won the same way he often does, by fully rotating the quad. That would be more consistant but of course no less provocative.

.

If people are discussing Chan could have won without the invalid jump combo there is a reason for it.
There is no maybe about this - and exactly how many quads has Chan ever tried in his career?
You said it like he has been showing the quad for several seasons when we all know it has been for two GP events. (Did he also try one at a summer comp?)

That is hardly enough to proclaim Chan normally rotates it....what is he 2 for 4? Or less?
I think it is too soon to say "Chan normaly rotates it."

It is also like going after Abbott. Nobody here has defended Jeremy's skating at COR.
Your opinions are fine but not sure if the facts support what you are saying here......
 
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pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Exactly what major events has Patrick won? :confused: Some GP event wins and one 4CC championship - so he seems to be exactly like Kostner in this regard. He has no world titles, Olympic titles, or GPF titles. He has no Olympic medals or GPF medals. He has got two World silver medals - and he absolutely did deserve those.

So where exactly are all these major events that Chan wins?? The argument that Chan will win everything no matter what simply holds no weight.

While Chan's silver at last years Worlds wasnt blatantly wrong many felt the judging was iffy there, and Chan was one of those scored on the slightly generous side. In anycase for the most part before this season Chan was scored within reason. However all of a sudden his scores have escalated to ridiculous standards, to the point with 4 falls he can beat anyone else skating cleanly. Which is quite proposterous since other than adding the quad he has improved in no areas from what he was before really, and in no way are his skills that far superior to the other top skaters.

So maybe in the past Chan was more like a Kostner, just a slightly held up skater who was inconsistent in jumps and had great skating skills. Now he is something entirely different altogether, something you couldnt even come up with a comparable example to really.
 

silverlake22

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 12, 2009
I doubt Verner would go to worlds and retry a jump in competition that he gave up on in his full programs in the GP season. Worlds has so much pressure. It would have to be Europeans. If it is not there he's probably not going to do it. I am not sure the theory of building up triples then to add the quad later still makes sense to me like it did earlier in the season because obviously he needs to work on programs with quads and triples. He can't do all triple programs and then train the quad separately and then add the quad. Everything needs to work together. This is what Verner himself is saying. The more he trains programs quadless the more difficult the quad will be in my opinion. I wouldn't even care that much if his past didn't have several good to great performances with quads and triples.

The second part about Lysacek and Joubert at the Olympics is true because Verner (and or his coach-Verner is used to encompass the whole Verner team) is just using a total copy of Lysacek's Olympic layout with just tiny modifications. He always gets edge calls on the flip but he didn't take that out to fix it! He just goes out and does edge call flips because he only gets an edge call. What about a Loop for Verner? Quads cause problems out- flip gets edge calls in -no problem.

Obviously this win is seen as a fluke because Chan fell and everyone is talking about Chan and no one really thinks much of this Verner win but he won and that's something.

Verner already changed his combination since CoC to 3lz-3t in the SP b/c of the flip edge call. I wouldn't be surprised if he changed his jump out of steps to a 3lo at the GPF now that it's worth essentially the same as a flip and he usually gets good GOE on his loop and can't get an edge call on it. He also said he might try the quad at at GPF because he has nothing to lose. I highly doubt he will put the quad in his SP this season, but I do think he may try it in the FS. His opening now is 3lz-3t right, so it's probably designed that he could do 4t-3t there instead and if he falls he adds the 3t to some other jump. Also if he does the quad then he could replace the 3f-2t-2lo combo at the end with a 3lz-2t-2lo combo and not have the do the flip which he gets edge calls on. Most skaters practice a few different arrangements of their programs so they can be ready to adapt in competition depending on what happens.

Verner's current layout is:

3lz-3t
3a-2t
3lo
x 3a
x 3lz
x 3s
x 2a
x 3f-2t-2lo

So the layout with the quad is likely

4t-3t
3a-2t
3lo
x 3a
x 3lz
x 3s
x 2a
x 3lz-2t-2lo

And if he falls on the quad or doesn't do it in combination he could do:

4t
3a-2t
3lo
x 3a
x 3lz
x 3s-3t
x 2a
x 3lz-2t-2lo

I tend to think he will eventually attempt the quad this season because if he does he can replace the flip combo at the end with a lutz combo and not get an edge call for it. He always did the quad before so I don't know why he would just abandon it now, especially where he was scored pretty stingily at CoC and in the SP here. I think the GPF will be telling. At Europeans I wonder if he might not do the quad just because he probably doesn't need it there to win a medal, and maybe the title. Worlds I tend to think he would go for it just because he probably realizes he's a bit of a longshot for a medal as is and the quad could make a big difference.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
sorry to interrupt the serious mood but have you heard the story about mushroom banners?:laugh:
Few of these appeared on the first day and by second day they multiplied!
I found it funny!

I bite. What do the banners say?

Is it something like this, the American saying, "You're treating us like mushrooms. Keeping us in the dark and feeding us manure."?
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
The judges gave higher scores in SS, TR, CH and IN and equal scores in PE. Was this so problematic?

Well I think part of the problem was Yu-na getting equal scores in P/E with Asada. From what I recalled. Yu-na had two major glaring! errors in her program, and in her last error Yu-na actually took her awhile to get up. It was lackluster on tv and, everyone who saw it live said she was lackluster.

In contrast, while Asada had an underrotated triple axel, it wasn't an obvious error to the naked eye. Asada's entire performance was quite sparkling. I'm frankly not sure who any one could argue that either Yu-na's execution OR her performance equaled Mao's. Asada was LEAGUES better in that area-on that night. Once again saying that Mao performed better than Yu-na on that night does not mean that Yu-na is some horrific skater, or even that Mao is normally the better skater. It just means on that night-Asada performed better. Don't get me wrong I can kind of understand Kim getting higher SS/choregraphy/transition marks. But Asada should have been WAY higher on Performance/Execution. For the judges to say that Asada's performance and Yu-na's performance were equal is frankly a slap in the face to Asada and the audience too. And if we really want to get into the whole mumble jumble of performance and execution doesn't mean performance and execution. I will point out that Mao's posture, lines, carriage has ALWAYS been better than Yu-nas. Mao has her strengths versus Yu-na. And for the record, I normally prefer Yu-na (I guess) or I quite adore Yu-na. So its not about me hating on Yu-na. Its about me hating on a system that somehow argues that the actual performance a skater puts out some how doesn't matter.
And its becoming clear to me the performance doesn't matter.

And I want to point out to part of the problem I had with what went down in Skate Canada, was the feeling that not only was Patrick Chan OVERSCORED, but that Oda and Adam Rippon were UNDERSCORED[/B]. For example at Skate America, Oda's PCS were about 5 points higher in the long program, than what he got at Skate Canada. And Oda was better at Skate Canada in the long than he was at Skate America. I actually thought Oda's pcs were too high at Skate America, as was Daisuke's but the overall gap between both, felt about right. (six points felt about right) and notice Daisuke wasn't given a 10 point cushion over Oda in the long.

I can live with people being overscored, if its clear the judges are overscoring everyone. But when the judges are being overly generous for one, while being stingy for others, I'm sorry I call foul.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
But the issue here is, is Chan truly better in all aspects of his skating and programs other than his falls? And he is so much more superior in all the other parts of his skating that he wins with 4 falls over other top skaters who skate relatively cleanly? .


I never proclaim Chan to be head and shoulder above his competitors in all aspects. Some aspects over some competitors maybe, definitely won't be comes GPF and Worlds when the best are together. It is about the total sum of all quantified elements and components on the particular day against the particular competitors. One can win by being a little better in most elements or head and shoulder above the rest in a few high scoring elements, like the quad kings do or feel they should do. As long as the positive points cancel out and exceed the deductions, one could win.

It's not hard to skate relatively clean. I could be cleaner than the World Champion you know. Unfortunately, or rather fortunately, that's not how a skating athlete is judged.

The thing is, many posters have pointed out areas in which Chan is most definitely NOT clearly head-and-shoulders above his competitors....that is why some of us have issues with his scoring

Unfortunately such opinions don't count in an ISU competition. Will work well in a reality show though, IF your opinion are with the majority.

FWIW, I accept and congratulate wins by skaters when they do the best by the rules on the day of the competition even if they are not my favorites. However, I choose to be a fan of skater whose skating I appreciate and enjoy the most, not based on wins and scoring. Some of my favorites will never win a major competition but Chan has what it takes to do so, fairly and by the rules.

And Janetfan, I knew I should have self corrected again as soon as I posted. (I'm almost paranoid about my every word and letter being taken literally if that offers an irresistable point to be pounced on.:)) I meant Chan gained points by fully rotating his jumps he fell on, especially the high scoring ones like 3A and 4T. When a skater falls on a non-elements, there is no other penalty besides the 1 point deduction, but it's a net loss. When one falls on a high scoring jump, the penalty is hefty, 4 points usually, but if fully rotated, it still offers a net gain, unlike if one falls on a low ranked jump, in which case, the net result would be a wipe-out or a negative.

As for revampting or tweaking the scoring system, I'm always weary of over reaction to a particular event or a person. There are often unintended consequences to deal with, prompting more changes or simply more rules (or laws by governments.) The Japanese Federation got the Asada rule they wanted and Mao lost more than her 3A. Joubert and his zealous fans demanded and got higher rewards and incentives for quads but now all top men have quads in various stages of competitive readiness, particularly the hated Patrick Chan. Yes Joubert fans hate Chan. They declare it often. And they rant and compare Joubert's scores to Chan's from a different competition, igoring his real competitors in the same event! :laugh:
 
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dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Oh, and there is a comparable example to Chan: Paul Wylie at US Nationals. OTOH, as well as Paul's basic skating being truly to die for, additionally his posture & turnout, especially in spread eagles and spirals, was amazing. And he was musical. Chan, not so much, particularly his posture in his sit & camel spin and his spread eagle.

Paul fell all over the place and scored high consistently, although he only made it to Worlds in some years and not in others.
Chan LP at SC
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxHzS4QydBU
Chan SP at CoR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c-7H60-jJyg

Paul Wylie's 1992 Olympic LP
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8nLhA7CVIok
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I can live with people being overscored, if its clear the judges are overscoring everyone. But when the judges are being overly generous for one, while being stingy for others, I'm sorry I call foul.

I completely agree with this.

When you think about it, if Chan's skating skills are so superior to everyone else's, then he shouldn't be falling four times in every event.

Someone on another board wondered why Chan looked like "a deer in the headlights" when he started the CoR FS. Chan is not confident about landing the quad and the 3A, and he wasn't sure he'd be held up the way he had been on home ice at SC. Well, he shouldn't have worried, because if he hadn't messed up by doing one too many combos, he would have won despite the messy FS. I can't think of any other skater who has had a total of 8 falls in two events and still went home with a gold and a silver medal.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Oh, and there is a comparable example to Chan: Paul Wylie at US Nationals. OTOH, as well as Paul's basic skating being truly to die for, additionally his posture & turnout, especially in spread eagles and spirals, was amazing. And he was musical. Chan, not so much, particularly his posture in his sit & camel spin and his spread eagle.

Paul fell all over the place and scored high consistently, although he only made it to Worlds in some years and not in others.

Things were very different in Wylie's day. Olympic-eligible skaters were not allowed to skate for pay in shows. There were a few international competitions pre-GP (NHK, Lalique, Nationals Cup, etc.), but for most skaters Nationals, Worlds, and Olympics every 4 years was pretty much it. Wylie attended Harvard while he trained, which might explain to some extent why he wasn't technically top notch. He won Olympic silver the season after he had graduated from Harvard. But he was always the most elegant, expressive and musical of the US skaters during his eligible years, so if he was held up at US Nationals despite his jump issues, it was for good reason. But Paul was never US Champion: he was 2nd in 1988, 1990 and 1992, and third in 1989 and 1991.

But Paul was not held up when he skated internationally. He never finished higher than 9th at Worlds in three tries. In pre-GP international competitions, he won one gold medal (1988 Lalique), two silvers (1987 NHK, 1989 SC) and two bronze (1989 Nations Cup, 1991 SC). In that respect, he is not at all comparable to Chan.

Chan is highly regarded for his edging and speed, and excels at footwork, but he has technical lacunae (jumps) and he is not particularly expressive or musical. He has yet to skate two clean programs in the same event in international competition, mostly because he hasn't been able to achieve mastery of the 3A, yet he is consistently awarded gold and silver medals despite messy programs with multiple falls.

Wylie had the one outstanding event with clean performances and he was rewarded Olympic silver. Year after year, Chan turns in flawed performances yet still lands on the World podium.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I bite. What do the banners say?

Is it something like this, the American saying, "You're treating us like mushrooms. Keeping us in the dark and feeding us manure."?


Judge fairly and not any mushrooms
:)

I dont know if the joke comes across, in Benelux it does for sure!
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
It appears both Chan and Oda will compete against each other in the Finals. For the purposes of this discussion, we can see where the judges are coming from. It'll be the Battle of the Lyrical Skaters.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
It appears both Chan and Oda will compete against each other in the Finals. For the purposes of this discussion, we can see where the judges are coming from. It'll be the Battle of the Lyrical Skaters.

Where the ISU judges are concerned, Chan doesn't have to battle against anyone. His gold medal has already been set aside at the Final and his name is already engraved. The other finalists are competing for silver and bronze.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
:jaw:this is the most bizarre thing i have read here, it is meant to be a joke?
All other technical elements marks besides jumps plus the program components are supposed to reflect the day of the skate on a given competition, ok we complain about pcs inflation and judging in corridors, but this is the combination of both!!! This solution is like having a best student that deserves A for his mathematical mind and the day of exam he falters but still gets an A because he is capable of it.

Plus skaters tend to improve their components once they feel more comfortable in a program as season goes by. Many skaters never skate to their full potential on a day of competition and if pcs were given so blatantly from a prejudged event ..I dont know..this is not a sport, this would be a circus.


Thanks for the compliment. I like to be bizarre.:laugh:
As for your criticisms of my ideas--well, you are aslo criticizing the current judging system. If a skater is deemed to have superior edges (or whatever), and gets so many points for those edges that it doesn't matter if he messes up several jumps, this is already a prejudged circus event. If the performance on the day of the event counts, someone who falls three times shouldn't be on the podium unless everyone else falls four times.

My suggestion is just to make aboveboard what they are doing already--tell everyone that a particular skater is likely to get a certain amount of points for a particular program every time they skate (they can vary the points by a certain amount--for example if a skater skates more slowly than usual). It would be sort of like a start value in gymnastics. Someone with a harder vault can maybe take two steps and beat someone who did an easier vault but only took one step on the landing. If Patrick Chan's programs are that superior to and so much more difficult than that of seasoned veterans Jeremy Abbott and Tomas Verner, that he can execute his programs so badly and still beat them (although in this last competition Jeremy did poorly as well), then make that judging system more transparent.

There's something exciting about seeing a clean program win a top medal. There's something distressing about seeing a clean program beaten by a messy one. I'm about at the point where I don't want to watch anymore, and I love this sport. How many casual viewers will be turned off?
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Unlike Takahashi, Patrick is frequently overscored in both TES and PCS. His GOE are nearly always overly generous.


This is such a general statement. Frequently? Nearly always? For SC and CoR, in examining the score sheets, where and how exactly was Chan scored incorrectly in TES? Under the rules, where was he not marked down appropriately? I agree PCS is much more difficult to monitor. Again, what really constitutes a 7 vs 8 vs 9? But where would you have put the scores?
 
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