Men's Free Program: 6:45 AM Eastern | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Men's Free Program: 6:45 AM Eastern

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
The judges need to start reflecting mistakes in PCS more as well. Right now they hardly reflect at all. And I agree there needs to be bigger deductions taken for falls. It is one thing to discourage risk but a risk is supposed to be a risk, so I would like to see people who fall on a quad get almost no points, as opposed to getting more than a clean triple. I would actually like to see all jumps with a fall get almost no points in addition to the extra one point deduction (maybe even bump it to 2 extra points). The underrotation calls in the past have been harsh, and the fall calls leanient. It is the underrotation calls which were the biggest thing discouraging risk.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
2. gkelly and wallylutz have both taken the time to explain repeatedly that falls don't always lower PCS, as structured currently. TRUE or FALSE

Have to point out that Joe Inman, a very well known ISU judge from the U.S. posted on this topic here in person as well, using his real name. Does he also have an agenda to somehow prop up Chan for no good reason like some conspiracy theorists have been suggesting?
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Jeremy doesn't deserve high PCS when he falls all over the place and is generally messy. And I know some people were watching the competition live said that Jeremy was much slower than not only Chan but also Verner in person. Menshov too. Jeremy does have nice choregraphy and transitions though but...

Interesting timing
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
Jeremy Abbott's PCS for SP:7.75 7.36 7.79 7.82 7.82
Jeremy Abbott's PCS for LP: 7.89 7.57 7.39 7.89 7.93

So, how is it the Chan with three falls gets crucified but Abbott with two falls, two step-outs and one popped jump getting the exact same PCS in his two programs (remember, he was clean in the short) doesn't get a single peep in this thread.
That either means that his clean sp should have gotten higher pcs or that his Lp when clean should score higher in pcs and now he didnt skate clean it didnt(personal opinion, I think it is the best lp of the season in terms of design and how jeremy interprets it). I dont think 7s with this program are outrageous, if he had gotten 9s I would mind.
I have read gkelly's explanation about how pcs are not influenced by falls so lets keep falls aside, although 3 falls in the program disrupt it ALOT but forget it, I m not a judge, the IN and P/E marks in Chan are too high for someone who doesnt change his tempo while skating and skates the same if it is Take 5 or Phantom. It is like he doesnt filter the program, to adjust it in his personality and own motion, he does whats on paper. For ss he can get 10, and maybe 9 for Tr , for the rest I dunno, but 9s? (this is personal opinion as well). And this high kick should go, it is there in e v e r y program of his.
Of course it is not Chan's fault. I just mind multiple falls. One can happen, when 4 happen it means the skater is not on a good day, what ss to reward there, the ones that he has left at practice?
Since he does so much in between, maybe this is the reason he cant handle a clean program and this should be alarming for his team?I cant remember when he did a clean program last time? I know people react when there is not much of choreo but jumps back to back, but when there is too much choreo and splats back to back it has the same impact if not worse. And I dont get his high GOE in the elements he didnt fall, especially his jumps look small iin distance and height (except the beauty quad he did in sp).
If we read the last page here we have ended up counting who has less falls and less Urs to find the rightful winner and this is not good.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I don't mind if Chan falls 4 times and wins - as long as he is beating a skater who fell five times. ;)

Falling so many times proves one thing - the skater was not having a good performance.

Why does the CoP feel such a need to reward such sloppy skating?

Actually I like Patrick and have defended him alot in the past. It is not his fault that judges love his skating even when he makes multiple major errors.

The argument that pcs don't have to be effected is one thing - but such high PE for a splatfest leaves me wondering how badly Chan would have to skate to get lower marks.

Maybe if Chan fell 6 times, including twice on his steps the judges might be forced to see his PE and SS was not the best during that performance.

BTW, the jumps he does land do not look like anything better than average. I see no great height or ice distance covered.

Not really personal but it feels like patrick is the flavor of the season. He can do know wrong but that doesn't mean fans miss so many of his mistakes.

Jeremy was a disappointment. Bronze, schmonze - this is about the Gold and that only a mental lapse on a jumping pass kept Patrick from winning again today.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
1. People are commenting that it's ridiculous for Chan to score high PCS despite his high number of falls. TRUE or FALSE

True. It is true that people are complaining and it is true that it's ridiculous. :)

2. gkelly and wallylutz have both taken the time to explain repeatedly that falls don't always lower PCS, as structured currently. TRUE or FALSE

True. We have been well educated about the current rules. We want them changed.

3. People don't listen, and make the same comments. TRUE or FALSE

It is false to say that people don't listen. They listen, But they still think the rules are wrong. The part about the same comments: true. And they will keep on making them no matter how much CoP scripture is quoted from the ISU pulpit.

4. However, people are selective in whom they make the comments about. TRUE or FALSE

People complain loudest about the most egregious cases, the lesser ones do not excite so much ire.

5. People suggested that Chan's PCS should've been much lower (without much knowledge of where, how or why, of course) at Skate Canada due to his falls. TRUE or FALSE

True that people "suggested" that Chan's PCSs should have been lower. False about the "without much knowledge" part.

6. To me, if you believe that visible errors in the manner of falls and step-outs should seriously detract from his PCS, it stands to reason that an Abbott with multiple errors including falls should suffer as compared to a clean Abbott TRUE or FALSE

True.

7. That didn't happen as represented here by a direct comparison of his short and long programs. TRUE or FALSE

True. Supporting once again the contention that the CoP needs serious re-evaluation.

8. If you choose to do a direct comparison between his NHK long program (no falls, though I forget the actual content, but it was one or two popped jumps and an UR) and CoR LP, you notice his PCS staying remarkably the same (mid to high 7s). TRUE or FALSE

9. Ergo, it stands to reason that it's not so much a biased loved fest that benefits Chan solely to the exclusion of all others, but is something systemic in the rules. TRUE or FALSE

10. If you're still disappointed/confused and/or think I'm an idiot, don't bother responding, as my sense of logic clearly clashes with your own. Just add me to ignore.

I am still disappointed. I am not confused. People focused on Chan more so than Abbott or someone else because Chan seems to have become the porter boy for this problem...

The problerm being,...well, the problem is two-fold. First, that the IJS allows a skater to fall all over the ice and still win.

And second, when fans express legitimate consternation about this they are met with contemptuous scorn by the skating in-crowd, who, noses in the air, pontificate from their ivory towers and tell all the little people to shut up and go sit in the corner with the ISU rule book.
 
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pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
Here is a simple way to look at it. If Chan's final point totals at the last 2 competitions had been dropped by 10-15 points would anyone have complained about his scores being too low, including those who defend them now? No. That already says it all.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Mathman, for what it's worth, I shifted into condescending tone as a consequence of the hyperbole. museksk8r pretty much dismissed my initial post, and then his follow-up was not about the content of my post, but that he thought it was stupid of me to pick on Abbott for his fourth ranked LP.

Oberseve janetfan's comment: "Bronze, schmonze." Ideally, the rules and principles would effect all skaters, not just the gold medalist. But the fact that the rules benefited the bronze medalist to the tune that if the rules change the way people want them two would then correlate to him without a medal here.

But this doesn't raise concern (that he's got a medal that by the definitions/standars they apply he'd be without).

This is okay. With Chan, who's the poster boy (I will say "porter boy" is a brilliant recontextualization of the phrase though, so well done), but it should be the principle people complain about (for what it's worth, I do believe YOU and pantongfan are complaining about the principle, and bekalc, though I didn't have an isue with his posts in the first place)

The dissapointed/confused comment was directly in response to museksk8r's post with his emoticons and "what is wrong with you" declamation.

I'm startled that you think the way people have phrased their consternation here and in the SC threads is legitmate, and sorry you feel I'm telling people to shut-up with my two posts on the subject. That wasn't my intention. I felt I saw a double standard. I still feel that way, regardless of the articulations otherwise. I'll pm you the rest of my thoughts.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
True. It is true that people are complaining and it is true that it's ridiculous. :)



True. We have been well educated about the current rules. We want them changed.



It is false to say that people don't listen. They listen, But they still think the rules are wrong. The part about the same comments: true. And they will keep on making them no matter how much CoP scripture is quoted from the ISU pulpit.



People complain loudest about the most egregious cases, the lesser ones do not excite so much ire.



True that people "suggested" that Chan's PCSs should have been lower. False about the "without much knowledge" part.



True.



True. Supporting once again the contention that the CoP needs serious re-evaluation.



I am still disappointed. I am not confused. People focused on Chan more so than Abbott or someone else because Chan seems to have become the porter boy for this problem...

The problerm being,...well, the problem is two-fold. First, that the IJS allows a skater to fall all over the ice and still win.

And second, when fans express legitimate consternation about this they are met with contemptuous scorn by the skating in-crowd, who, noses in the air, pontificate from their ivory towers and tell all the little people to shut up and go sit in the corner with the ISU rule book.

Mathman, this may be my favorite post by you, possibly ever! I agree on all points! :thumbsup::rock:
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
ImaginaryPogue said:
Mathman, for what it's worth,...

Sorry, I didn't mean to tee off on you personally. (But who can resist a ten question true or false test? ;) )

I do think, though, that the skating establishment has become so enamored with refining rule number 32.9, paragraph (a), subsection (iii) -- rather like Sheldon's "roommate agreement" with Leonard on the Big Bang Theory, if you get/watch that show :rock: -- that they have forgotten what a skating competition is all about. And also that they dismiss the opinions of the lesser folk, even as they expect these same folk to pick up the tab for lunch.
 
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janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Oberseve janetfan's comment: "Bronze, schmonze." Ideally, the rules and principles would effect all skaters, not just the gold medalist. But the fact that the rules benefited the bronze medalist to the tune that if the rules change the way people want them two would then correlate to him without a medal here.

.

OK, I think for your point here to be valid we would have needed to see many posts claiming Abbott wuzrobbed, or whoever came in fourth wuzrobbed.

Have we heard much of that?

That is why I said "bronze, schmonze."
You make a fair enough point but not one that people have been discussing.

Was Jeremy overscored? I would have to go back and watch him again and I forget who came in 4th and 5th. I really have no interest and what grabbed me and many others at GS was that Patrick fell 3 times in his LP and except for "pulling an Oda" would have won.

I think people are genuinely concerned. I thought Oda won SC (SA as well). You and I may not love Tomas' LP but I have news for you - I don't love Chan's LP all that much either.

I won't get into it further and whatever you think of me - I actually like Patrick and think he is a marvelous skater. I think Tomas is a good skater too, Oda, Dai, ect.

Patrick may be special - but as Scott recently said "Chan has made so many technical errors any advantage from his TR and SS has been negated." Somehow I believe Scott was right.
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
While I didn't see the short program at Skate America, after watching the long programs, I got to say that I don't have an issue at all with Daisuke ending up winning the free. To be quite frank its not like Nobunari himself was all that perfect, he had a fall on a jump, and Nobunari seriously does need to work on his presentation. That combined with Oda pulling a classic Oda, I just don't think Daisuke's win at Skate America can be compared with what went down at Skate Canada or at Cup of Russia.

This being said, BOTH Daisuke and Oda were way overscored in PCS at Skate America. For me personally, I truly don't have an issue with a skater having lets say a one fall advantage (or a 2 minor jump error advantage) if the rest of their skating is overall better. Overall skating truly should matter. But once we start getting into multiple major errors, well Scott is correct that advantages in SS and TR need to be negated.
 
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I hope you dont think i use double standar, I dont care if it is chan or lambiel or someone X skater, the gold medalist today in Cor skated clean both programs and the marks should reflect the difference, as it is now, it looks like Chan and Verner had almost the same performance which they didnt.Even if Verner has a mess of music cuts, he didnt fall all over the place and did he best with the vehicle he had (love his sp though), Chan and Abott didnt and the system as it is didnt show it.I think most people reacted for the marks, as the placements where fine. I dont think someone thinks Contesti should have been overall above Abott even with the clean skate he had today and in this case it is obvious why.

And second, when fans express legitimate consternation about this they are met with contemptuous scorn by the skating in-crowd, who, noses in the air, pontificate from their ivory towers and tell all the little people to shut up and go sit in the corner with the ISU rule book.

I counted 6 unknown words in one sentence:laugh: Ok, I go to get my ISu rulebook
 
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jan

On the Ice
Joined
Nov 21, 2004
I was wondering how many people on this forum have seen Patrick Chan skate live. I agree that falls should be reflected in the PCS . I just don't think people realize how far above his skating skills are. His lean, turns, quality of edge are unmatched my experience. Here is a skater who has invested a good part of his career on the second mark so he could become a complete skater. People need to recognize and appreciate this. As well he should be rewarded for it.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
While I didn't see the short program at Skate America, after watching the long programs, I got to say that I don't have an issue at all with Daisuke ending up winning the free. To be quite frank its not like Nobunari himself was all that perfect, he had a fall on a jump, and Nobunari seriously does need to work on his presentation. That combined with Oda pulling a classic Oda, I just don't think Daisuke's win at Skate America can be compared with what went down at Skate Canada or at Cup of Russia.

This being said, BOTH Daisuke and Oda were way overscored in PCS at Skate America. For me personally, I truly don't have an issue with a skater having lets say a one fall advantage (or a 2 minor jump error advantage) if the rest of their skating is overall better. Overall skating truly should matter. But once we start getting into multiple major errors, well Scott is correct that advantages in SS and TR need to be negated.

My comments about Dai and Oda from SA were really from a discussion with Pogue last week. Having read that Dai himself called his LP a mess and that he just coudn't skate his best that night kind of sealed the deal for me. Without the blunder Oda would have won so actually I agreeded with the judges but not necessarily the rule.

But perhaps it was better that Patrick added that combo and lost today. It would have been unbelieveable here if Tomas had come in second. :eek: :eek: :eek:
 

bekalc

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 1, 2006
I was wondering how many people on this forum have seen Patrick Chan skate live. I agree that falls should be reflected in the PCS . I just don't think people realize how far above his skating skills are. His lean, turns, quality of edge are unmatched my experience. Here is a skater who has invested a good part of his career on the second mark so he could become a complete skater. People need to recognize and appreciate this. As well he should be rewarded for it.

How can a skater who is an inconsistent jumper, be considered "complete" I'm tired of the concept that jumps aren't part of the whole package because they frankly are. As I said before why should we even bother with the jumps if people are going to argue that a skater can be complete without them. ( And I love that Patrick is working on the quad)

The whole package skater is someone who excells on both aspects, not one or the other.

And while I haven't seen Patrick live, there have been plenty of people who HAVE seen Patrick live, who complain about his scores. One could point out that while Patrick's skating skills are sublime, he actually has a tendency to skate through the music.

Once again, I believe people when they say Patrick is fabulous live. (I can tell that he's fabulous on my tv screen.) But for me, I frankly don't care how fast you are, how great your edges are, I don't think you should be winning competitions if your falling 4 times.

In some ways its starting to feel like Patrick is the male version of Kostner.
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I was wondering how many people on this forum have seen Patrick Chan skate live. I agree that falls should be reflected in the PCS . I just don't think people realize how far above his skating skills are. His lean, turns, quality of edge are unmatched my experience. Here is a skater who has invested a good part of his career on the second mark so he could become a complete skater. People need to recognize and appreciate this. As well he should be rewarded for it.

I have seen Patrick Chan live and I have said before that he truly has marvellous skating skills, all lovely deep edges and great acceleration.

However, the "second mark" in CoP is not entirely composed of skating skills. Skating skills is but one mark of the five components of PCS. Nobody here is protesting that Chan does not deserve his high SS marks. But I for one question whether his high marks in the other components of PCS--like IN and PE, for instance--are entirely merited, especially given the type of performances he has been giving this season.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I was wondering how many people on this forum have seen Patrick Chan skate live. I agree that falls should be reflected in the PCS . I just don't think people realize how far above his skating skills are.

I ve seen him at Worlds, and he upgraded my opinion to much better than tv, I still found he rushes through the choreo and has not personal color, he doesnt reach the audience or at least me at first row but I saw how he changed direction, skated not stop, covered all ice arena, had great edges and is smooth and really fast, and then... he splatted.
 

i love to skate

Medalist
Joined
Dec 13, 2005
But I for one question whether his high marks in the other components of PCS--like IN and PE, for instance--are entirely merited, especially given the type of performances he has been giving this season.

The problem I have with this is that it isn't just one or two judges who are giving Patrick high marks for PCS. The marks he receives on PCS are pretty consistent among all the judges that mark him. This is the question I would like answered by the skating fans who say he does not deserve his marks: Why would all the judges be overmarking him and giving him high marks if he doesn't deserve them?

BTW, I'm not singling you out evangeline :)
 
M

mylastduchess

Guest
If PCS was judged "fairly" as some people here suggest it should be judged, then Chan and Abbott's marks in PE should be down...True, but Verner's and especially Oda's CH and TR marks would also go way down because it there is barely anything there...

Although I actually agree that there should be more deductions for falls
 
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