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Thread: Men's Free Program: 6:45 AM Eastern

  1. #211
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ImaginaryPogue View Post
    Oberseve janetfan's comment: "Bronze, schmonze." Ideally, the rules and principles would effect all skaters, not just the gold medalist. But the fact that the rules benefited the bronze medalist to the tune that if the rules change the way people want them two would then correlate to him without a medal here.

    .
    OK, I think for your point here to be valid we would have needed to see many posts claiming Abbott wuzrobbed, or whoever came in fourth wuzrobbed.

    Have we heard much of that?

    That is why I said "bronze, schmonze."
    You make a fair enough point but not one that people have been discussing.

    Was Jeremy overscored? I would have to go back and watch him again and I forget who came in 4th and 5th. I really have no interest and what grabbed me and many others at GS was that Patrick fell 3 times in his LP and except for "pulling an Oda" would have won.

    I think people are genuinely concerned. I thought Oda won SC (SA as well). You and I may not love Tomas' LP but I have news for you - I don't love Chan's LP all that much either.

    I won't get into it further and whatever you think of me - I actually like Patrick and think he is a marvelous skater. I think Tomas is a good skater too, Oda, Dai, ect.

    Patrick may be special - but as Scott recently said "Chan has made so many technical errors any advantage from his TR and SS has been negated." Somehow I believe Scott was right.

  2. #212
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    While I didn't see the short program at Skate America, after watching the long programs, I got to say that I don't have an issue at all with Daisuke ending up winning the free. To be quite frank its not like Nobunari himself was all that perfect, he had a fall on a jump, and Nobunari seriously does need to work on his presentation. That combined with Oda pulling a classic Oda, I just don't think Daisuke's win at Skate America can be compared with what went down at Skate Canada or at Cup of Russia.

    This being said, BOTH Daisuke and Oda were way overscored in PCS at Skate America. For me personally, I truly don't have an issue with a skater having lets say a one fall advantage (or a 2 minor jump error advantage) if the rest of their skating is overall better. Overall skating truly should matter. But once we start getting into multiple major errors, well Scott is correct that advantages in SS and TR need to be negated.
    Last edited by bekalc; 11-20-2010 at 08:55 PM.

  3. #213
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    I hope you dont think i use double standar, I dont care if it is chan or lambiel or someone X skater, the gold medalist today in Cor skated clean both programs and the marks should reflect the difference, as it is now, it looks like Chan and Verner had almost the same performance which they didnt.Even if Verner has a mess of music cuts, he didnt fall all over the place and did he best with the vehicle he had (love his sp though), Chan and Abott didnt and the system as it is didnt show it.I think most people reacted for the marks, as the placements where fine. I dont think someone thinks Contesti should have been overall above Abott even with the clean skate he had today and in this case it is obvious why.

    And second, when fans express legitimate consternation about this they are met with contemptuous scorn by the skating in-crowd, who, noses in the air, pontificate from their ivory towers and tell all the little people to shut up and go sit in the corner with the ISU rule book.
    I counted 6 unknown words in one sentence Ok, I go to get my ISu rulebook
    Last edited by seniorita; 11-20-2010 at 09:00 PM.

  4. #214
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    I was wondering how many people on this forum have seen Patrick Chan skate live. I agree that falls should be reflected in the PCS . I just don't think people realize how far above his skating skills are. His lean, turns, quality of edge are unmatched my experience. Here is a skater who has invested a good part of his career on the second mark so he could become a complete skater. People need to recognize and appreciate this. As well he should be rewarded for it.

  5. #215
    Banned janetfan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    While I didn't see the short program at Skate America, after watching the long programs, I got to say that I don't have an issue at all with Daisuke ending up winning the free. To be quite frank its not like Nobunari himself was all that perfect, he had a fall on a jump, and Nobunari seriously does need to work on his presentation. That combined with Oda pulling a classic Oda, I just don't think Daisuke's win at Skate America can be compared with what went down at Skate Canada or at Cup of Russia.

    This being said, BOTH Daisuke and Oda were way overscored in PCS at Skate America. For me personally, I truly don't have an issue with a skater having lets say a one fall advantage (or a 2 minor jump error advantage) if the rest of their skating is overall better. Overall skating truly should matter. But once we start getting into multiple major errors, well Scott is correct that advantages in SS and TR need to be negated.
    My comments about Dai and Oda from SA were really from a discussion with Pogue last week. Having read that Dai himself called his LP a mess and that he just coudn't skate his best that night kind of sealed the deal for me. Without the blunder Oda would have won so actually I agreeded with the judges but not necessarily the rule.

    But perhaps it was better that Patrick added that combo and lost today. It would have been unbelieveable here if Tomas had come in second.

  6. #216
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan View Post
    I was wondering how many people on this forum have seen Patrick Chan skate live. I agree that falls should be reflected in the PCS . I just don't think people realize how far above his skating skills are. His lean, turns, quality of edge are unmatched my experience. Here is a skater who has invested a good part of his career on the second mark so he could become a complete skater. People need to recognize and appreciate this. As well he should be rewarded for it.
    How can a skater who is an inconsistent jumper, be considered "complete" I'm tired of the concept that jumps aren't part of the whole package because they frankly are. As I said before why should we even bother with the jumps if people are going to argue that a skater can be complete without them. ( And I love that Patrick is working on the quad)

    The whole package skater is someone who excells on both aspects, not one or the other.

    And while I haven't seen Patrick live, there have been plenty of people who HAVE seen Patrick live, who complain about his scores. One could point out that while Patrick's skating skills are sublime, he actually has a tendency to skate through the music.

    Once again, I believe people when they say Patrick is fabulous live. (I can tell that he's fabulous on my tv screen.) But for me, I frankly don't care how fast you are, how great your edges are, I don't think you should be winning competitions if your falling 4 times.

    In some ways its starting to feel like Patrick is the male version of Kostner.
    Last edited by bekalc; 11-20-2010 at 09:03 PM.

  7. #217
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan View Post
    I was wondering how many people on this forum have seen Patrick Chan skate live. I agree that falls should be reflected in the PCS . I just don't think people realize how far above his skating skills are. His lean, turns, quality of edge are unmatched my experience. Here is a skater who has invested a good part of his career on the second mark so he could become a complete skater. People need to recognize and appreciate this. As well he should be rewarded for it.
    I have seen Patrick Chan live and I have said before that he truly has marvellous skating skills, all lovely deep edges and great acceleration.

    However, the "second mark" in CoP is not entirely composed of skating skills. Skating skills is but one mark of the five components of PCS. Nobody here is protesting that Chan does not deserve his high SS marks. But I for one question whether his high marks in the other components of PCS--like IN and PE, for instance--are entirely merited, especially given the type of performances he has been giving this season.

  8. #218
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jan View Post
    I was wondering how many people on this forum have seen Patrick Chan skate live. I agree that falls should be reflected in the PCS . I just don't think people realize how far above his skating skills are.
    I ve seen him at Worlds, and he upgraded my opinion to much better than tv, I still found he rushes through the choreo and has not personal color, he doesnt reach the audience or at least me at first row but I saw how he changed direction, skated not stop, covered all ice arena, had great edges and is smooth and really fast, and then... he splatted.

  9. #219
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    Quote Originally Posted by evangeline View Post
    But I for one question whether his high marks in the other components of PCS--like IN and PE, for instance--are entirely merited, especially given the type of performances he has been giving this season.
    The problem I have with this is that it isn't just one or two judges who are giving Patrick high marks for PCS. The marks he receives on PCS are pretty consistent among all the judges that mark him. This is the question I would like answered by the skating fans who say he does not deserve his marks: Why would all the judges be overmarking him and giving him high marks if he doesn't deserve them?

    BTW, I'm not singling you out evangeline

  10. #220
    mylastduchess
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    If PCS was judged "fairly" as some people here suggest it should be judged, then Chan and Abbott's marks in PE should be down...True, but Verner's and especially Oda's CH and TR marks would also go way down because it there is barely anything there...

    Although I actually agree that there should be more deductions for falls

  11. #221
    Custom Title bekalc's Avatar
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    I'm not so sure Oda's transition marks should go way down. I mean HE does have incredibly difficult entrances in all of his jumps. Transitions shouldn't just be about quantity, quality should matter. In terms of choregraphy/and performance-yes Oda deserves to go down. At the very least its not fair to say Oda has no transitions.

    But as for why do the judges give Patrick high marks on all the PCS, well these are the same judges who give Joubert and Plushenko high marks for transitions for their lack of such. Its pretty clear PCS are all about reputation... In general Patrick Interperation scores when he skates well don't bother me nearly as much as the concept of him getting huge scores for messy programs.
    Last edited by bekalc; 11-20-2010 at 09:18 PM.

  12. #222
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    Why would all the judges be overmarking him and giving him high marks if he doesn't deserve them?
    oh come on, if thats a reasoning Plushenko was never overscored as well,because why he was getting so high marks if he didnt deserve them?and I m the first who says he was overmarked many times. He just missed the fall 4 times rule

  13. #223
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    Quote Originally Posted by i love to skate View Post
    The problem I have with this is that it isn't just one or two judges who are giving Patrick high marks for PCS. The marks he receives on PCS are pretty consistent among all the judges that mark him. This is the question I would like answered by the skating fans who say he does not deserve his marks: Why would all the judges be overmarking him and giving him high marks if he doesn't deserve them?

    BTW, I'm not singling you out evangeline
    Well, many judges have also consistently given Plushenko high marks for transitions, despite the fact that Plushenko himself more or less admitted that he hardly had any. Does Plushenko deserve these high marks?

    The underlying problem behind all this--which affects all skaters, not just Chan--is one that we have discussed on Goldenskate many, many times before. The fact is that PCS marks don't seem to be correctly applied at all--it is perfectly plausible that there can be wide variation among the different categories of PCS. For example, Skater A may have excellent SS and TR but may be entirely mediocre in categories like IN and PE. Unfortunately, what appears to happen a lot is that Skater A's PCS are more or less all within a point range of each other.

    That being said, there seems to be more variance in PCS spreads this season, which is an improvement.

  14. #224
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    how many people on this forum have cried foul over Joubert's or Plushenkos PCS over the years. Not nearly the same number who have complained about Chan.
    I also find it amusing that posters are saying that it is good that Chan is " working" on his quad. Hmmm..Did he not just land a spectacular one in his short. Oh with a triple toe tacked on for good measure.
    i actually think Chan has made his programs too difficult and and maybe he should take out some of his transitions. Maybe he should take a rest before the second half of his program.

  15. #225
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    i actually think Chan has made his programs too difficult and and maybe he should take out some of his transitions. Maybe he should take a rest before the second half of his program.

    That would be good cause I was starting to believe he uses the falls as a pause. If he cant skate clean with all this content it would be better to skate clean with less, they will not drop his pcs for that reason.

    I dont think any top skater stops working on the quad once landing it, and anyway maybe he is working it to get it consistent then, since the success rate is 50% so far, has landed two, missed two..

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