11-20-2010, 09:55 PM
That is very true. Neither of them deserved those either. Joubert for some reason this year doesn't get them anymore (is thatperhaps the message that he should take the retirement package?? and Plushy we will probably never know, when he would have gotten more appropiate PCS scores.
Originally Posted by jan
11-20-2010, 10:08 PM
Joubert's PCS scores have suffered when he had lots of falls in his programs. Plushenko, OTOH, rarely if ever fell and his jumps were huge and covered immense distances on the ice.
I have seen Patrick Chan skate live many times, and each time, he splatted. At Liberty this past summer, he splatted on the 3A and footwork in his SP and on the quad and 3A in his FS. He was overmarked there, too.
I don't see why there should even be a competition where this guy is concerned. If he's always going to win a medal regardless of how he skates, why not have him pick a number out of a box (1, 2, or 3), award him the appropriate medal, and let the other men compete for the remaining two medals.
There's no competition there, if as Patrick has said, the judges score him based on his practices.
11-20-2010, 10:21 PM
chuckm, what do you think the CoR podium should've been like with fair judging?
11-20-2010, 10:36 PM
He said he skates 3 sessions a day, the first two are devoted to programs, and then he works on the quads and other elements on their own during the 3rd session, but at this point he is really tired by the 3rd session because he is not used to training so hard. I don't think he's trying to make excuses, I think he just wants to get his feet under him and his reputation back before he brings back the quad. Nothing wrong with that. Now, if come Europeans and Worlds he' still not attempting the quad, then we can speculate. Until then though, let it be.
Originally Posted by gmyers
The other thing is that I understand why people would get annoyed if skaters like Oda or Brezina didn't attempt the quad because the rest of their jumps are just so good. But for Verner, that was not the case last season or historically, he often had 3a problems and problems with his regular triples. He really should be focusing on getting the 3a consistent before he focuses on the quad and that appears to be what he's doing now, and it's working. Also, a lot of the top men weren't attempting quads all last season - Lysacek, Oda, Weir, Chan, Brezina and then you had Takahashi and Abbott who did attempt the quad but fell on it the majority of the time. After seeing Evan will the OGM and Joubert finish down in 16th, I think it was a wake up call for most men about the power (or lack thereof) of the quad.
Last edited by silverlake22; 11-20-2010 at 10:44 PM.
11-20-2010, 10:49 PM
Oh no this is very very bad news!!!!
Originally Posted by FTnoona
Can you please kindly tell me where did you read about his injury. I hope it is not serious
Put Chan discussion aside, What do you guys think of Artur Gachinski. Is his PCS too high compare to other skaters?
11-20-2010, 10:52 PM
Arthur is all about the jumps - if he lands them, he's great, but if he's off like he was tonight, there's nothing else there to save him. His programs are pretty bare bones and the FS is downright snoozy. He needs a personality injection.
Originally Posted by treeloving
11-20-2010, 10:56 PM
I though Gachinski's PCS scores were ridiculously high. He just.wasn't.that.good. He waved his hands around a lot, but I didn't see much in the way of transitions or interpretation. Some have called him a mini-Plush, and I can see where that comes from.
To answer another poster's question, I think the podium at CoR was fair, but I'd prefer to see Chan's PE and IN scores in the 7's, not in the 8s. Three falls in a program should take the PE score down quite a bit. As to IN, Chan skates exactly the same way no matter what music he has selected. He does not do any characterization or interpretation, just does exactly the same routine every time. He does not project to the audience AT ALL.
11-20-2010, 11:36 PM
Why bother with logic, ImaginaryPogue? It really is no use, as I can see from reading 16 pages of this thread alone. I really wish this would be less of a Chan bash-fest, and more of a discussion about the system. You can't blame Chan, or Verner, or any of the other skaters. This is fundamentally about the system, and the vitriol against individual skaters is just disgusting.
So let's think about the system.
I'm not sure we want to go back to the days where jumps ruled everything, and nothing else matters. Perhaps there is some tweaking that needs to be done to the system around GOE and PCS, but as a whole, I think the skaters themselves do like CoP better than the old OBS. It gives skaters a chance to measure their own progress, understand what they did poorly as well as what they did well, and the skaters I know all head for their report cards after a competition to see how they've done. While each judging panel is different, the skaters will look to see whether or not they "got their levels", and if the general trajectory is positive with GOE's. They hope to see improvement on their PCS scores, but that is seen as the judges subjective mark, and not fully in their control.
If the system would change to penalize skaters that have falls, then the natural result would be that skaters would not try the more difficult jumps for fear of falling. If you want skaters to try quads, you have to reward them, and not penalize if a skater falls. Pretty soon we would have a system where skaters don't push the limits, but always try to play it safe. I don't think anyone here would like that.
Maybe part of the answer is to better define what is the PCS. What constitutes a 5 vs a 6 or a 7? How is this really determined? Maybe part of the PCS gets moved to the GOE, which better ties mistakes and performance, and lowers the weighting on PCS? Again, I wouldn't want to go back to figure-jumping competitions, but perhaps there is a way to tweak the balance a little differently.
11-20-2010, 11:53 PM
I am a new poster jumping into the hot topic after lurking for a while. I have enjoyed watching figure skating for a long time but have to thank two "recent" enablers - Youtube and the COP system - for heightening my enjoyment and deepening my enderstanding and appreciation of this beautiful sport. Easy access to information online, official or otherwise, can be very educational.
I am a fan of Patrick Chan as well as many other skaters. In fact, though I may have personal preferences of skating styles and abilities, I admire all elite skaters for their talents, dedication, and discipline way beyond almost all of us folks. Though I may perceive some of them as personalities I might not click with, I don't imagine any of these fine young people may be in any way near evil or as despicable as some online people habitually portray them to be. Yes, I am Canadian, so I'm familiar with Patrick Chan's TV personality. He comes across as wholesome, polite, and too honest and I haven't heard or read anything but positive about his character from anyone who has met and interacted with him. Amazingly, online I find some people who have never met Chan seemingly hating him so much that they wish for his demise and practise character assasination, making definitive statements about his mind and interpreting his every word and action the worst way possible. I believe some of the controversies about his scores are quite personal, not to offend those who genuinely discuss the sport and its scoring system.
Re. the COR results, I congratulate all the medalists, especially Verner, hoping this is the big boost he needed to excel after a very difficult year. I'm happy for Chan's Silver because if he had won with his falls, I would fear for his personal safety. As far as his scores are concerned, I believe he has earned them, including those from SC. There is little wiggle room in TES and he was appropriately penalized for his falls, so the debates have centred on the PCS. As PCS involve lower risk portions of the scoring, they are relatively constant for a skater, offering an advantage to those with high skating and performing skills. I believe PCS should be independent of the TES and the judges seem to be practising that this season. Leaving aside the arguements about how much technical element mistakes, especially falls, should affect the PCS, I see no particular evidence of judges favouring Chan just as I don't see how Canada is the Superpower that international judges kowtow to, even in Russia and even over an American. Two observations:
1: In SC, PCS did not affect Chan's placement, at least not in SP, and there is little dispute about his LP result. There was a score gap between the top 3 and "the rest" in both TES and PCS. Chan was at the bottom of the TES gap, barely sitting on top of the 5th placer and his top PCS lifted him into the middle of the gap in the total scores, staying firmly in 4th place. The PCS differences were small in SC. In fact, the placements pretty much followed the TES down the line, with only a couple of switches where it took several PCS places to move a skater up one place, Chan not being one of them. In contrast, at NHK, for example, the placements pretty much followed the PCS down the line.
2: On the other hand, in this GP series, Joubert, Takahashi, Nagasu, and Kostner have all faltered in technical elements but been given much higher PCS such that their placements were several places higher than TES-equivalent PCS would have left them. I am not faulting any of these skaters for scores received, Chan included. But the total inattention to these facts amidist the outrage ahout Chan's scores and the demand for revamping the system seem rather skewed and Chan-centric.
It's clear that many fans are judging the skaters with completely different criteria than the official ones judges are abiding. But these criteria are often vague, emotional, and reactionary, requiring rationalizations and reuslting in some proposals of rather convulated new scoring rules for the purpose of preventing winning with falls, especially by a Patrick Chan.
My opionion on why Chan falls so much lately: Firstly, I think this is transitional and typical of a skater upping his/her jump difficulties. And Chan has very ambitiously increased his difficulty level. Mentally it's never easy to attemp a quad, unless you're Plushenko or Kevin Reynolds, especially in debuting it in competitions. Even his 3As are now done out of steps in SP and in combo with 3T in his LP. In fact, all his jumps are preceded by fancy footwork. Secondly, not only does he never stalk his jumps, Chan never pops one. At least I've never seen him pop any jump. He takes high risks and is always committed to all his elements. In SC, he went after his 3A out of steps after the 4T fall. Then he went after the quad in the LP after the disheartening SP. He went about throwing himself around in the >30 second footwork sequence with a measly 2 point base value. So he sometimes falls in attacking the high risk jumps, but most of the times he earns credits with full rotations rather than forfeiting them with voluntary downgrades. If only clean programs are allowed to win, skaters would be avoiding risks, making figure skating less of a highly technical sport, though more appealing as an entertainment of mass appeal. Yes, I love show programs and worry about the well being of quad jumping skaters, but I also like figure skating to remain an Olympic sport.
As in any competition, rules are rules. Chan has played by the rules and earned his marks fair and square.
I had some touble trying to post this, so I apologize for probably being behind the current discussion.
Edited for spelling errors including the main subject's name.
Last edited by SkateFiguring; 11-21-2010 at 02:14 AM.
11-20-2010, 11:57 PM
You know, I've heard this popularized quite suddenly and I don't agree, but I'm also not sure where it comes from. I think his IN isn't that great for either POTO or "Take Five" because neither fits him well, but I don't see him skating the same way in either of them as he did in Vivaldi or Tango Exilados. His "Take Five" attempts a loose-limbered comic flirty vibe (he doesn't pull it off as well as others might) whereas "Exilados" is sharp, dramatic, intense.... he manages to maintain a staggering amount of tension throughout. "Take Five" feels a lot more youthful, "Exilados" more mature. Even when he does the same motions, they feel to have different meanings/goals. That's interpetation to me. I don't think I'd give him mid eights for what it's worth, but I'm not a trained judge either.
Originally Posted by chuckm
08/09 SP (which he kept for 09/10)
As for Phantom... well, the biggest disappointment of the Olympic season was discovering he was skating to this music. It's banal melodrama, and you've gotta be wickedly special to pull that off (Vanagas and Drobiazko were able to because they were recklessly passionate skaters, but Davis/White and Takahashi - for all their respective fire and passion - never quite conveyed that obssessive passion - White's too "Raoul"ish and Takakashi's almost too good for that music). And not only that, you've gotta be an extroverted skater who's able to blow the roof off. Chan isn't suited to that, in my mind, and frankly - I don't really want to see him skating to that (I don't think it's because of his inability to project, though I've heard that exact same label applied to Abbott, Rippon, and most other lyrical/soft skatersm to be honest). On the other hand, I was glad he kept it for this season. I thought an old program would allow him to work on his jumps and up the technical content. I think it's done that. Yeah, 50% success with the quad and 33% with the triple axel aren't numbers anyone wants to post, but I'm glad he's trying.
Also worth mentioning is that he rarely does two new programs each season. POTO is a repeat. Last season's "Tango" was a repeat. He did Vivaldi two years running. I wonder if that has something to do with the perception that he always skates the same.
--Also wanted to add as a complete side note, an American has medalled at each GP event this season. And two of them were unpredictable. I'd hate to be an American male skater on the rise looking at that.---
Last edited by ImaginaryPogue; 11-21-2010 at 12:00 AM.
11-21-2010, 12:09 AM
I couldn't agree with you more. Thats what i feel like. All of his programs are the same, just with different music. Its already bad with his emotionless expression and dead eyes. He is a great skater, but he really really need big dose of personality and connecting to the viewrs like Takahashi and Jeremy. I though Evan was bad, he is worse.
Originally Posted by chuckm
11-21-2010, 12:16 AM
i don't think anyone will gonna pull Tonya if he wins again w splatfest nor he will beat himself to death mentally. lol
Originally Posted by SkateFiguring
11-21-2010, 12:56 AM
I haven't witnessed any competitor protesting Chan's scores or expressing distaste for him on a personal level. And Chan, like most winners, and I mean that in a general sense such that it would apply to many elite skaters, seems to always take and learn something positive out of his experiences, instead of beating himself to death mentally. The craziness is not with Chan or his competitors.
Originally Posted by wonderlen3000
Before I get sternly corrected, I would qualify my statement that Chan doesn't pop jumps with the exceptions of downgrading a second jump in a combo with a problematic landing of the first, which also shows his determination to complete the element.
Last edited by SkateFiguring; 11-21-2010 at 01:44 AM.
11-21-2010, 03:02 AM
SkateFiguring, thanks for delurking and posting your thoughts and opinions. FWIW, I agree with you whole heartedly. It's a shame this forum has become Chan-bashing central and the vitriol is truly frightening and the double standard applied to him is really ridiculous. I agree with you (and others) about the difficulty of Patrick's programs. It's good that the judges recognize the quality of his skating and reward him for it, thus encouraging him and all the other skaters to continue to improve their performances. You make an excellent point about the difference between show skating and Olympic caliber athletic difficulty. It's a distinction that is lost on many of the posters I fear.
11-21-2010, 03:33 AM
Yes, Chan has several falls, but he seems to get up so quickly, that the falls don´t disturb, in my opinion. Because of that he deserves his high PCS (which shouldn´t be connected with failing in technical elements, anyway). On the other hand I also think that falling in a jump should have a higher penalty than -3 GOE and -1 point deduction, especially if one falls more than once.
Last edited by Jaana; 11-21-2010 at 03:43 AM.