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Thread: Men's Free Program: 6:45 AM Eastern

  1. #241
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    Quote Originally Posted by silverlake22 View Post
    He said he skates 3 sessions a day, the first two are devoted to programs, and then he works on the quads and other elements on their own during the 3rd session, but at this point he is really tired by the 3rd session because he is not used to training so hard. I don't think he's trying to make excuses, I think he just wants to get his feet under him and his reputation back before he brings back the quad. Nothing wrong with that. Now, if come Europeans and Worlds he' still not attempting the quad, then we can speculate. Until then though, let it be.

    The other thing is that I understand why people would get annoyed if skaters like Oda or Brezina didn't attempt the quad because the rest of their jumps are just so good. But for Verner, that was not the case last season or historically, he often had 3a problems and problems with his regular triples. He really should be focusing on getting the 3a consistent before he focuses on the quad and that appears to be what he's doing now, and it's working. Also, a lot of the top men weren't attempting quads all last season - Lysacek, Oda, Weir, Chan, Brezina and then you had Takahashi and Abbott who did attempt the quad but fell on it the majority of the time. After seeing Evan will the OGM and Joubert finish down in 16th, I think it was a wake up call for most men about the power (or lack thereof) of the quad.
    I doubt Verner would go to worlds and retry a jump in competition that he gave up on in his full programs in the GP season. Worlds has so much pressure. It would have to be Europeans. If it is not there he's probably not going to do it. I am not sure the theory of building up triples then to add the quad later still makes sense to me like it did earlier in the season because obviously he needs to work on programs with quads and triples. He can't do all triple programs and then train the quad separately and then add the quad. Everything needs to work together. This is what Verner himself is saying. The more he trains programs quadless the more difficult the quad will be in my opinion. I wouldn't even care that much if his past didn't have several good to great performances with quads and triples.

    The second part about Lysacek and Joubert at the Olympics is true because Verner (and or his coach-Verner is used to encompass the whole Verner team) is just using a total copy of Lysacek's Olympic layout with just tiny modifications. He always gets edge calls on the flip but he didn't take that out to fix it! He just goes out and does edge call flips because he only gets an edge call. What about a Loop for Verner? Quads cause problems out- flip gets edge calls in -no problem.

    Obviously this win is seen as a fluke because Chan fell and everyone is talking about Chan and no one really thinks much of this Verner win but he won and that's something.

  2. #242
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    Quote Originally Posted by bekalc View Post
    In some ways its starting to feel like Patrick is the male version of Kostner.
    How so, it is not like Kostner wins alot of events. In fact I cant think of any event she won she probably didnt deserve to which were some lukewarm GP event wins and some European titles over a not outstanding European ladies field. And the only medal she ever won she probably didnt deserve was her silver at the 2008 Worlds, she certainly earned her medals at the 2005 Worlds and 2008 GP final and other ones. And the judges would not put Kostner 1st with 4 falls above Yu Na Kim or Mao Asada skating cleanly. They wouldnt dare. In fact they would put Kostner with 4 actual falls (even trying her hardest content with triple-triples and all triples like she used to try) above skaters like Rochette, Nagasu, Ando, Lepisto, Suzuki, probably even Flatt, skating reasonably well. Chan is on a much greater level of overscoring than Kostner ever was.

  3. #243
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    How so, it is not like Kostner wins alot of events. In fact I cant think of any event she won she probably didnt deserve to which were some lukewarm GP event wins and some European titles over a not outstanding European ladies field. And the only medal she ever won she probably didnt deserve was her silver at the 2008 Worlds, she certainly earned her medals at the 2005 Worlds and 2008 GP final and other ones. And the judges would not put Kostner 1st with 4 falls above Yu Na Kim or Mao Asada skating cleanly. They wouldnt dare. In fact they would not put Kostner with 4 actual falls (even trying her hardest content with triple-triples and all triples like she used to try) above skaters like Rochette, Nagasu, Ando, Lepisto, Suzuki, probably even Flatt, skating reasonably well. Chan is on a much greater level of overscoring than Kostner ever was.
    I wholeheartedly agree! Chan is without question the most overscored skater in history in any discipline I believe.

  4. #244
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    It's hard to distinguish what this thread is about. Is it Chan's performance or is it the PC scores are not related to each other?

    I see the PC scores as an attempt to quantify them so that posters like us wont complain as much - but we do! The old 6.0system was based on an opinionated performance despite the fact that judges were to look into certain facets of what makes a performance.

    The PC scoring attempted to consider the entire scope of the PROGRAM - not just the PERFORMANCE.

    The PCs are composed of 5 basic units, each one, I presume, is worth 20% of the the TOTAL score for PCS. Each one is based on the opinions of the judges for the guidelines (bullets) contained therein. From what I have been told, judges can use, or not use, some of the guidelines. The 20 percentages are added up (presumably to justify quantatative thought) and voila, the entire Program of the skater is now evaluated, and added on to the Tech scores (which have their own discrepancies).

    IMO, we have to discard the opinionated Performance factor as the sole judged components. There are four others to deal with. Not easy and I confess, I still use the Performance only when watching a comp.

    On a personal note, I consider a Fall and certainly multiple Falls as a complete disruption of the Program, and the immediate penalty is not enough to cover the faulty element and the performance factor.

    I insist that the ISU begin work on revising the CoP from beginning to end and not just piecemeal as we have seen.

  5. #245
    Off the ice Buttercup's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stickle View Post
    It's a shame this forum has become Chan-bashing central and the vitriol is truly frightening and the double standard applied to him is really ridiculous.
    Chan is hardly the only skater who's been the target of severe (and yes, sometimes inappropriate) criticism on this forum and elsewhere. I have read some truly viscous comments about Evan Lysacek (whom I don't like much, either, but some things are just too much), Carolina Kostner, Evgeni Plushenko, Laura Lepisto, Johnny Weir, Brian Joubert, and DomShabs, to name a few - accusations of corruption regarding their marks and placements, wishes for ill health, gloating when they do badly, the works. Personally, after the Olympics, I had enough of the negativity, and basically packed my bags and left. I had over 2000 posts here at the time, and hundreds on FSU, and those post counts have not gone up much in the past nine months. I appreciate the moderators' hard work, there are knowledgeable fans whom I've learned a lot from (Doris's ice dance posts in particular), but on the whole, this is not how I want to experience skating.

    As for Patrick Chan: I think there are several reasons he attracts a lot of negativity, not all of them having much to do with him. First of all, the perceived disconnect between his performances and his marks is big - bigger than for anyone except maybe Dai on a bad day - and it's getting bigger each season. Chan's skating hasn't changed considerably in the past three years; his basic skills and steps were always good, his 3A remains inconsistent, and his quad, while gorgeous when it's on, is a 50-50 proposition at this point. He was a good skater in 2008, with strengths and weaknesses that haven't changed much - and yet his marks have shot up in a major way. And while I'll allow some of this was justified, a four-fall Chan does not merit almost the same score as a clean (if uninspiring) Tomas Verner. This is not Patrick's fault, it's a systemic problem, but he's now the poster boy for how to win with a sloppy program, much in the way that Kostner's performance at 2008 Worlds came to be viewed as what CoP shouldn't be rewarding. But Kostner, as someone pointed out, usually slots in about where her skating should have her. And Chan doesn't - not anymore.

    It doesn't help matters that Patrick makes some pretty inflammatory statements at times, ones that serve no purpose and reflect badly on him. It doesn't help that Lori Nichol and Skate Canada politik for him in such an obvious way. Everyone politiks, but not everyone has the sort of power Nichol and SC do. It doesn't help that some of his supporters keep telling those of us who are not fans that we lack the sophistication to appreciate his greatness. I can have a civil debate and interesting discussions with many of Patrick's fans, but I don't think I should apologize for not sharing their positive views of him.

    Patrick Chan has fabulous skating skills, difficult step sequences, and some nice jumps. He's a good spinner but not a brilliant one, his interpretation is not the best we've ever seen, and he's inconsistent on the hardest jumps. That's not a complete skater, no matter how good his skating skills are. That's not someone who should be at the top of the podium when he's off-form, or have a four-fall cushion over good skaters. And I suspect Patrick knows this; I hope his fans realize it, too.

    That having been said, all this hardly makes Chan 1. the source of all (skating) evil 2. corrupt 3. deserving of anyone's ill wishes. Chan is playing the game by the rules the ISU set, and the blame for the scoring we're seeing doesn't really lie with him. As someone who's seen her own favorites trashed repeatedly, I'd rather keep my criticism on point.

    FWIW, I think Dai has also been enjoying some generous scoring this season. And with that, I think I'll go back to lurking. Enjoy the gala, everyone.

  6. #246
    "Hold an edge and look sexy!" museksk8r's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buttercup View Post
    Chan is hardly the only skater who's been the target of severe (and yes, sometimes inappropriate) criticism on this forum and elsewhere. I have read some truly viscous comments about Evan Lysacek (whom I don't like much, either, but some things are just too much), Carolina Kostner, Evgeni Plushenko, Laura Lepisto, Johnny Weir, Brian Joubert, and DomShabs, to name a few - accusations of corruption regarding their marks and placements, wishes for ill health, gloating when they do badly, the works. Personally, after the Olympics, I had enough of the negativity, and basically packed my bags and left. I had over 2000 posts here at the time, and hundreds on FSU, and those post counts have not gone up much in the past nine months. I appreciate the moderators' hard work, there are knowledgeable fans whom I've learned a lot from (Doris's ice dance posts in particular), but on the whole, this is not how I want to experience skating.

    As for Patrick Chan: I think there are several reasons he attracts a lot of negativity, not all of them having much to do with him. First of all, the perceived disconnect between his performances and his marks is big - bigger than for anyone except maybe Dai on a bad day - and it's getting bigger each season. Chan's skating hasn't changed considerably in the past three years; his basic skills and steps were always good, his 3A remains inconsistent, and his quad, while gorgeous when it's on, is a 50-50 proposition at this point. He was a good skater in 2008, with strengths and weaknesses that haven't changed much - and yet his marks have shot up in a major way. And while I'll allow some of this was justified, a four-fall Chan does not merit almost the same score as a clean (if uninspiring) Tomas Verner. This is not Patrick's fault, it's a systemic problem, but he's now the poster boy for how to win with a sloppy program, much in the way that Kostner's performance at 2008 Worlds came to be viewed as what CoP shouldn't be rewarding. But Kostner, as someone pointed out, usually slots in about where her skating should have her. And Chan doesn't - not anymore.

    It doesn't help matters that Patrick makes some pretty inflammatory statements at times, ones that serve no purpose and reflect badly on him. It doesn't help that Lori Nichol and Skate Canada politik for him in such an obvious way. Everyone politiks, but not everyone has the sort of power Nichol and SC do. It doesn't help that some of his supporters keep telling those of us who are not fans that we lack the sophistication to appreciate his greatness. I can have a civil debate and interesting discussions with many of Patrick's fans, but I don't think I should apologize for not sharing their positive views of him.

    Patrick Chan has fabulous skating skills, difficult step sequences, and some nice jumps. He's a good spinner but not a brilliant one, his interpretation is not the best we've ever seen, and he's inconsistent on the hardest jumps. That's not a complete skater, no matter how good his skating skills are. That's not someone who should be at the top of the podium when he's off-form, or have a four-fall cushion over good skaters. And I suspect Patrick knows this; I hope his fans realize it, too.

    That having been said, all this hardly makes Chan 1. the source of all (skating) evil 2. corrupt 3. deserving of anyone's ill wishes. Chan is playing the game by the rules the ISU set, and the blame for the scoring we're seeing doesn't really lie with him. As someone who's seen her own favorites trashed repeatedly, I'd rather keep my criticism on point.

    FWIW, I think Dai has also been enjoying some generous scoring this season. And with that, I think I'll go back to lurking. Enjoy the gala, everyone.
    Buttercup, I LUV U! You articulated my thoughts and feelings perfectly as well. Thank you, dear!

    Personally, I don't like the negative fan I've become and I don't like what the sport I once loved has become as a result of these COP rule changes. However, I feel if we who are upset don't allow our voices to be heard, then potential for change will never come about. So, I will unfortunately continue my loathing of the way things are until this mess is resolved. No Chan fan is going to be able to convince me that a 4 fall Patrick is better than a no fall Tomas with a clean SP and an 8 triple LP. Verner is not a bad skater by any means. This is not a skater with zero artistic ability who skates like a lifeless snail across the ice completely void of emotion, choreography, musical interpretation, and transitions we are talking about here. Tomas has fantastic skating ability and all the skills one needs to be Olympic and World champ. His mind and inconsistency has been what has stood in his way in the past, not his lack of skating talent.
    Last edited by museksk8r; 11-21-2010 at 07:18 AM.

  7. #247
    leave no stone unturned seniorita's Avatar
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    to name a few - accusations of corruption regarding their marks and placements, wishes for ill health, gloating when they do badly, the works. P
    B darling, you forgot also the voodoos?

    opionion on why Chan falls so much lately: Firstly, I think this is transitional and typical of a skater upping his/her jump difficulties. And Chan has very ambitiously increased his difficulty level. Mentally it's never easy to attemp a quad, unless you're Plushenko or Kevin Reynolds, especially in debuting it in competitions.
    I would agree if he didnt fall as well the previous seasons before he "upped" his jump difficulties. I have not much memory as when it was the last time he skated an sp and lp clean, moreover in the same competition. It is not like he misses the axel or falls in other jumps just this year that he incorporated the quad which is still an iffy jump as well. Kudos for him that he tries 4-3 in sp, that was jaw dropping, but just because he is trying difficult elements, this is not reward if he doesnt land them as well. I ll be the first to throw a party if I see him skate a clean sp and lp alltogether.
    Also most here dont adress to Chan as a skater or a person, unless you say I dont like his interpretation or his presentation and thats a valid opinion for the skater, rathen than judges marks, the system as it is and needs to be changed.

  8. #248
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    This is not the first time fans have been exposed to this type of judging, and it has happened with every scoring system. This is not the first time a skater who is the object of such judging patterns has been exposed to vitriol. This does not appear to be the first time that a skater has been told by the judges that they are what they are looking for, and will be forgiven jump mistakes and even nervousness.

    A good example seems to be Maria Butyrskaya in the GP under 6.0. She would win Lalique or Nations Cup or SC competitions landing two clean triples of seven planned in her LP after a shaky SP. She would suffer MUCH vitriolic comment on the boards, as we all remember.

    Another example is Sasha Cohen, who was often the benefactor of high presentation or PCS over her errors. She got lots of vitriol over her errors.

    A distant example to some extent in the minor competitions was Katarina Witt. She appears to have won two Olympics with two different kinds of triples - salcow and toe loop, repeated - demonstrating no other superior difficulty like at Worlds in 1987 and prior Worlds where she tried 3 flip or 3 loop. She also had easy footwork and spins to just meet requirements. She was the benefactor of high presentation marks many times over say, Midori Ito, who often did 5 or 6 triples with a 3 - 3 combination and still didn't win.

    This is nothing new. For me, however, I have seen all the skaters live several times, and Chan is a benefactor of some very generous PCS, particularly in the PE and EX marks, which should go down significantly with the failure of jump technique. Otherwrise, the message is that execution has nothing to do with landing jumps with the music and choreography, and that PE is not affected by falls, neither of which is true.

    Cheers!

  9. #249
    Tripping on the Podium wxyz1234533's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    How so, it is not like Kostner wins alot of events. In fact I cant think of any event she won she probably didnt deserve to which were some lukewarm GP event wins and some European titles over a not outstanding European ladies field. And the only medal she ever won she probably didnt deserve was her silver at the 2008 Worlds, she certainly earned her medals at the 2005 Worlds and 2008 GP final and other ones. And the judges would not put Kostner 1st with 4 falls above Yu Na Kim or Mao Asada skating cleanly. They wouldnt dare. In fact they would put Kostner with 4 actual falls (even trying her hardest content with triple-triples and all triples like she used to try) above skaters like Rochette, Nagasu, Ando, Lepisto, Suzuki, probably even Flatt, skating reasonably well. Chan is on a much greater level of overscoring than Kostner ever was.
    I thought Bekalc meant Kostner and Chan both fall a lot in the programs, not both overscored.
    Last edited by wxyz1234533; 11-21-2010 at 08:05 AM.

  10. #250
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    I find less issues with his marks, because he is being punished in a way that's easy to quantify--a drop in GoE and a deduction, but how do skaters who don't do transitions or choreography get punished? Generally, they don't if they are placed at the highest level.

    Verner beat Chan on performance by .17 pts and maybe that's not enough, but Chan beat Verner in transitions by .79 points and in choreography by .32 and in my eyes, that's not enough.

  11. #251
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    Interesting reading some of the posts this morning.
    Buttercup's post was very good and made me think.......

    One thing I really don't see here as much as "Pogue" and a few others seem to be selling is a degree of "Chan bashing" or personal hatred for him at the level where violence may follow.

    All who implied that IMO are way off the mark, missing the issue and quite frankly out of ideas.

    I don't see the uproar over Chan's scores as a sign that posters want him to be banned from skating or for someone to pull a "Tonya Harding" on him.

    Those remarks are pure nonsense.

    The uproar is over the scoring system - and how it is rewarding such obviously and undeniably flawed performances with such high scores.

    For me, I admit to be grinning a bit as I see the 6.0 philosphy of a clean skate has not yet been lost on fans, particularly some of you who are younger.

    Yes, for the record I think a clean skate still has some value particularly as it relates to P/E. I also think it involves IN - as I have seen Chan's "deer in the headlights" expression several times after falls - the look he gave after he fell on his steps was a classic example of a skater whose technical mistakes dirsupted his P/E and IN and even the effect of the CH.

    I agree with buttercup that Chan is hardly the first skater to be going through this. Last season we saw Mao win the WC and yet a far from stellar Yuna still won the LP. I recall Beka was adamant about this and also know she loves both skaters - and possibly favors Yuna. That doesn't mean that Yuna making obvious technical errors and skating far from her best should be scored over Mao in the LP.

    It seems to me it was an example of problems in the CoP. I like both girls too but do not see Yuna as so superior that a sloppy skate from her beats very good Mao.

    Evan is another one - and despite the fact that I defended him so much he is really not my cup of tea. I much preferred Dai over Evan or Plushy in Vancouver and yet he was placed third.

    Seems to me that Patrick and Dai both have some exceptional skills.
    What I am honestly missing from this scoring system is how can Dai fall once and be placed third while Patrick can fall four times and be placed first.

    I see a few areas where Patrick is better than Dai - just as I see areas where Dai is better than Patrick.
    I think many fans don't understand how having such good SS - as Joesitz pointed out that is only 20% of the components score - can be scored so high when we are seeing so many MAJOR tecnical errors.

    I don't get it. I don't blame Patrick - I even like his skating. But to be honest, when he keeps falling four times at an event I don't see him as the winner or why he gets such high scores.

    I don't think it feels right but also haven't read any threats that would involve Patrick's saftey. Those types of defensive posts appear to be an avoidance of the real issue here which is the CoP.

    FTR, I think Patrick and Dai have both benefitted from extreme reputation scoring this season.
    Dai's pcs were 20 points higher than his TES at SA - and he admitted it was a sloppy skate that was far from his best.
    Last edited by janetfan; 11-21-2010 at 09:07 AM.

  12. #252
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    Takahashi and Verner both skate with a lot of personality and both have great audience appeal. Chan is lacking in those areas; he appears to be skating for himself, not for the audience. Yes, Takahashi has had mistakes and still scored high, but his mistakes never interrupt the performance aspect---he just laughs and keeps going. Chan, OTOH, gets that deer-in-the-headlights look after a fall and when there are multiple falls, his face is frozen in a kind of panic. That's why I wouldn't complain about Takahashi's PE mark, but think Chan is way overscored in PE and IN when he has a shaky performance.

  13. #253
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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    Seems to me that Patrick and Dai both have some exceptional skills.
    What I am honestly missing from this scoring system is how can Dai fall once and be placed third while Patrick can fall four times and be placed first.
    I am a long term Daisuke fan, and I must admit the biggest difference in term of the scores between him and Patrick so far this season is spins. Patrick gets both levels and more positive GOE points, while Daisuke hasn't. That's where he's loosing out, as well as popping jumps and poor landings. But it is business as usual - we all know spins are his nemesis and he struggles at the beginning of each season, but he always manages to pull it off by the end - at least level-wise if not GOE. Also he's getting edge calls on both his flip and lutz. Under IJS, small loss of points in elements results in considerable diffrence in total.

    I agree Daisuke makes up his low TES as much as, if not more than, Patrick by PCS. Having said that, I would not personally use a term 'benefit' for both skaters. PCS is part of scoring system and the way TES and PCS are awarded relatively independently from each other allows the system to reward skaters with different strength more fairly - just like the way spins, step sequences and jumps are judged separately.

    Daisuke said his performance was sloppy technically, but over all performance was better at SA - he said it was the first time this season he kept concentration and drive till the end of the programme. And it was reflected in higher PCS he received at SA, IMO.
    Last edited by mot; 11-21-2010 at 11:41 AM. Reason: a few words inserted for clarity of meaning

  14. #254
    Rink Rat i love to skate's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pangtongfan View Post
    How so, it is not like Kostner wins alot of events. In fact I cant think of any event she won she probably didnt deserve to which were some lukewarm GP event wins and some European titles over a not outstanding European ladies field. And the only medal she ever won she probably didnt deserve was her silver at the 2008 Worlds, she certainly earned her medals at the 2005 Worlds and 2008 GP final and other ones.
    Exactly what major events has Patrick won? Some GP event wins and one 4CC championship - so he seems to be exactly like Kostner in this regard. He has no world titles, Olympic titles, or GPF titles. He has no Olympic medals or GPF medals. He has got two World silver medals - and he absolutely did deserve those.

    So where exactly are all these major events that Chan wins?? The argument that Chan will win everything no matter what simply holds no weight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    The uproar is over the scoring system - and how it is rewarding such obviously and undeniably flawed performances with such high scores.
    I think I know a little bit about what you think of the scoring system.(I agree with some points of yours) But I am not sure if you want to return to 6.0 or revise again this current system. Or, are you just questioning some very arguable judging?

    The rules have changed this year so what about discussing the changes? About its influence on what skaters are doing this season?

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    I agree with buttercup that Chan is hardly the first skater to be going through this. Last season we saw Mao win the WC and yet a far from stellar Yuna still won the LP. I recall Beka was adamant about this and also know she loves both skaters - and possibly favors Yuna. That doesn't mean that Yuna making obvious technical errors and skating far from her best should be scored over Mao in the LP.

    It seems to me it was an example of problems in the CoP. I like both girls too but do not see Yuna as so superior that a sloppy skate from her beats very good Mao.
    I feel a little offended because you and some other posters bring up this issue over and over again as the most corrupt example of the judging system. You keep saying sloppy, subpar, less than stellar Yuna won very good Mao in LP. OK, Yuna's performance was nowhere near her own Olympic performance. But... How sloppy was Yuna? How good was Mao? Maybe your taste and my taste are a little different but that's not the point.

    How many more points do you think Mao should have been given than Yuna? Maybe 5 points would have satisfied you? What I want to say is that the actual score difference was very small. The biggest reason why Yuna won by a small margin is the UR call of Mao's second 3A. Was it unfair? PCS? Do you want to give higher score to Mao? How much?
    The judges gave higher scores in SS, TR, CH and IN and equal scores in PE. Was this so problematic?

    Well, if this competition was judged by the current rule, Mao would have won with a small margin. NMURA would know it very well and I have no problem with it. So this case is already an old news. You don't have to bring up this case as the most unfair judging in history in order to point out the rule problems.

    Anyway, Yuna went through mentally hard times befor the worlds and was not prepared enough and bombed in SP. But look at her LP. So sloppy? I see still stellar 3-3 and some good elements and a big fall and a fight.

    Quote Originally Posted by janetfan View Post
    What I am honestly missing from this scoring system is how can Dai fall once and be placed third while Patrick can fall four times and be placed first.
    Chan can win with three falls in SP but cannot win with three falls in LP. Anyone will never win the LP with three falls. Arguable?

    I think that PCS has become a more decisive factor than before this season. I don't like this... more inflated PCS for several skaters(especially Takahashi and Chan but some other skaters too) and more subjective judging in placement.
    Takahashi got the highest PCS at olys so his bronze was because of his low TES.
    The current rule is more lenient about falls than at the olys. As I preferred Takahashi with a fall to other skaters without falls, I don't oppose so much.

    Sorry for the long post.

    PS. Agree with mot in many ways but I still think overall PCS should be lower than now.
    Last edited by sunny0760; 11-21-2010 at 11:15 AM.

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